Reconciling nannies' needs and employers' needs

[BoffinMum]

On another thread we have been discussing how fraught the nanny/employer relationship can be. As Gizmo said:

FWIW WRT nannies and the working relationship I think it is one of the most difficult relationships one can experience, for a number of reasons:

a) it crosses the boundary between domestic and business dealings, and neither model of communication is specifically appropriate in that situation
b) nannying as a career is not built around a traditional career path so many of the conventional motivators - increases in responsibility, salary etc - are not present. I find this conflicts with my awareness that it is a hard job and that even I occasionally find my children wearing: sometimes I look at my nanny and think 'but what's in it for you?'
c) the fact that for most nannies the working relationship is not just with Mumboss but also with Dadboss, who is inevitably going to have his own agendas
d) and as everyone has said: the uniquely powerful position that childcarers hold presents many opportunities for paranoia to build extremely rapidly.

Interesting point about there being little public discussion of children as individuals and their personalities, rather than as tokens of success, or potential demand. I suspect that on one level that is inevitable - in all honesty, how much public discussion is there about any individual's personality? It seems so much easier for the media to deal in generalities.

and as MrsWobble said:

many people want proactive nannies who use their initiative - but also want the nanny to do everything the way the employer would have done it. there is an inherent tension here.

many people want a nanny who is as like them as possible - but actually a nanny like you wouldn't be a nanny but would be forging their own high power career.

many people are used to a hierarchy at work and the giving/receiving of instructions - a nanny relationship requires far more of a lateral communication channel to be successful.

many people want their child to be the nanny's focus but get upset by the emotional attachement that develops - another inherent tension.

i think the key to success (if there is one) is to keep a sense of perspective and remember that even if there is "perfection" out there it doesn't matter if you don't find it - good enough really is good enough.

Thoughts, everyone?

I am feeling good I have hired a bright one now.

My good temp from the Place We Do Not Name(PWDNN for short) was like that - reminded me about all sorts of things, improved our domestic systems, brought the children on a bit, etc etc. I've just taken on a temp from somewhere else and she's a bit like that as well, but she has had a very experienced and senior job elsewhere in childcare. So brains obviously count for something, as does a particular kind of applied experience.

I have only had the one nanny so dont have a great deal of experience. I really struggled at first, trying to work out how to "treat" her. I think this was in part due to me being new mum, but also being new at the nanny relationship. I employ other people (in my work life) and I think I have found a position that I am comfortable with in that I treat her in the same way as my other employees so we have a professional relationship which means I make sure that she feels treated fairly and is well paid. If she does something that I am not happy with, I say so, in the same way that I do at work, rather than let it fester.

Interestingly, I think she has had to adjust her mindset to having a professional relationship with the parents of her charge as while she has always been treated as one of the family by previous employers, a couple did take advantage of her good nature. I gave her a bonus at xmas because she does go above and beyond her job description, and so I told her that I wanted to recognise this - I would also do this with another employee in my work life. Obviously there is a non-professional bit, which is that she clearly adores DD.... which is great!

"I find that whilst I'm polite, respectful, meet all my employers demands as well as I possibly can I find being treated like a human being is something that rarely happens."

Excellent point, tavvy. Clearly respect goes both ways and nannies are just as deserving of this as employers are, even though they are in the position of being the employee. This thread is supposed to be about both nannies' and employers' needs and one basic need a nanny has is to be treated as a human and not as a super-machine. Nannies need employers to come home on time, because at the end of the day it is actually a job and we do have a life outside work, or at the very least call as soon as they know they're going to be late. They need a contract, they need to be paid on time, they need to have reasonable holidays and they need employers to recognise that they get sick sometimes and whilst they will 90% of the time struggle into work they probably won't be at their best that day. Nannies can have 'off' days just like everyone else which is something else that isn't recognised.

I find that flexibility has to go both ways but, whilst some employers do recognised that and act on that philosophy, some say that but expect the flexibility to be all one way and yet others don't even pay lip service to the notion of flexibility and expect it all to go their way.

Another interesting point which I don't think has been raised yet is that nannies don't have colleagues in the traditional sense of the word and they don't have access to training or progression within one job. Nannies, like everyone, need human interaction and I'm certainly of the opinion that they should be updating and extending their skills and knowledge. I can't think of any job where you could conceivably go 20 years without needing to go on a course to learn soemthing new. Nannies don't even have to have a 1st Aid certificate although most employers require it.

I think it does sound snobby tbh

Our best nanny by miles was one who was a career nanny. She didn't have the greatest academic qualifications but she loved looking after children, loved taking them out on trips and made sure they did their work. My children adored her and she was brilliant at setting boundaries with them, sorting out bad behaviour, problems at school etc.

I think if you are limiting your nanny choice by those with academic qualifications you are missing a trick.

Why is it snobby? It just reflects what's important to a particular employer. No-one is saying academic people automatically make good nannies, or that those without academic qualifications aren't good nannies, it's merely that some people prefer to have an educated AND enthusiastic person looking after their children. I'm sure your nanny would have been the same person she was, fox, if she'd had a degree in Spanish or Physics too.

I sometimes feel there's a certain kind of inverse snobbery (as an educated nanny) that academic people are too overqualified to look after children. I often get asked why I want to do it when I have a degree as if there's some perception that people with degrees should be doing 'better' things.

While I totally understand that some parents want educated and intelligent nannies, I think there can be a big problem here in terms of pay. Professional childcare is generally shockingly underpaid. Nannying is at the higher end in my experience - much better than working in a private nursery, for example - but it's still significantly lower than the average graduate salary (probably around £19,500 in 2008 though some reports suggest it's nearer £25,000). I'm currently studying for my BA which is going to leave me in approximately £20,000 of debt. Much as I love childcare, it seems a bit of a waste of all this time and extremely expensive education if I end up back in a nursery earning £12,000 a year. We see so many young, un(der)qualified girls going into childcare not just because childcare is presented as an easy job anyone with no GCSEs can do (though it is, and that's a problem), but also because most people with higher level qualifications don't want to work a tiring, challenging, emotionally demanding full-time job for a salary that barely skims above minimum wage.

A full-time nanny could be on £20-£30k, even more if in London, so I would say it can compare with a graduate starting salary. It won't increase greatly though. Nursery staff however are low paid, in my area £13,000 a year is typical.

I wonder if some people with higher level qualifications don't want to work a tiring, challenging, hour+ commute each way, intense office politics, high stress, working in an air-conditioned glass box type of full-time job - thus consider nannying. Some of us don't like offices, we are more outdoor people but not outdoor loving enough to be a full-time gardener.

foxinsocks - the nanny you describe sounds great. Did they have some academic though, or did they leave school with nothing?

I have never met or heard of a nanny earning anywhere near £30,000. I'm sure a few of them exist, but they're in no way representative of most professional childcarers - the vast majority of families just don't have that sort of money to spend on childcare, and many of the few who do... well, why would they pay £30k when they could easily find excellent full-time care for £15k?

I would infinitely prefer nannying to an office job. However, I'd also prefer a job that pays a living wage over one that doesn't...

Average London wages are £10 per hour net so with a 50 hr working week runs pretty close to 30K gross.
I paid £24 000 pa gross for our last nanny and this is a very average suburb where not many people can afford nannies (unsurprisingly...)
I have found this thread very helpful(thank you all!) in making me think about what wants/needs are for the next nanny (my mum is helping out atm but don't want to wear her out bless her)
I am rubbish at giving orders and veer too much on the side of lax as an employer -which can be fine if you only pick the right nanny...
(Lax as in not really giving specific instructions not getting home late from work or not paying proper wages and tax I hasten to add)

electrelane - I think nannying is pretty well paid, especially compared to most office jobs, though the standard week is longer (50 hours rather than 40). As nannynick says, the thing that may put graduates off is the lack of career progression.

Most full time nannies I know in Bristol are on something between £20k and £26k gross a year for live out. In London it varies from around £20k gross for full time live in to £34k gross for full time live out.

I've found that some of the more difficult relationships I've had with employers is when they've been a bit insecure about employing a nanny. They want you to be "part of the family" and a friend rather than an employee, I think because they'd like to imagine you look after their children for love rather than money. I wonder of this is guilt about paying a stranger to come in and do their job?

Being "part of the family" also seems to be good cover for asking lots of favours, especially for live in nannies - will you watch the children for an hour on a saturday morning while I nip to the shops? Or "help out" at a weekend birthday party.

I find this type of employers won't give you any useful feedback either, which is very frustrating. You're left to guess whether you're doing things the way they like.

I've also worked for a MB who had nannies herself as a child, and their was none of this. Although she was approachable, kind and friendly, she was also totally upfront about what she wanted, had no problem asking for things to be done, was home on time, paid on time - professional basically. Much, much easier.

Agree on the professional points. I manage my nanny on a professional basis; as novice says giving bonus for above and beyond etc. I am also friendly; as I would be at work! I give feedback as and when small things come up and don't make a deal out of it. Again same as in an office situation. Biggest challenge for me was I work in a high initiative environment and realised I need to give more direction at home. Once I had got this; works great.

Top london nannies are v well paid - £35K+ for a 55 hour week. I employ one and know many; the bit that I am always amused by is how many believe they will earn more in an office job. They may eventually but after a number of years and I know v few £50K jobs where you genuinely clock off, expect to get overtime etc.

Giving feedback I expect is a tricky area for all employers. When things go wrong, then feedback is forthcoming. When things go right, there probably isn't a lot of feedback. Is that the case in most jobs, not just nannying?

Nannies don't routinely get yearly appraisals though, which would be a good thing for feedback.

Re the salary I used to have a very well paid nanny job and certainly earned more there than in a graduate job. There are quite a few highly paid nannies on MN but the flipside is you oftn work damn hard for it. 24/5, 12 hour days, extensive travel - not your average jobs but usually above £30k. Very experienced nannies can easily top £30k working full time but like any job you don't start that way. Still for someone who may have failed half their GCSEs and got a lucky break as a mothers help at 16 that's not bad going!

"I sometimes feel there's a certain kind of inverse snobbery (as an educated nanny) that academic people are too overqualified to look after children. I often get asked why I want to do it when I have a degree as if there's some perception that people with degrees should be doing 'better' things."

I get that alot, or at least I get questioned about my career choice alot as I have a Law degree and some parents have commented along the lines of "what a waste" that I am a Nanny! I don't see it that way at all. I am doing something I love, and am good at, and my education is merely one facet of me as a person. I have found as I get older though that having the Law degree has got me higher caliber jobs as the parents do seem to be seeking out degree qualified nannies. But, with these higher caliber jobs, comes a tougher overall job: longer hours, greater responsibility, extensive travel and higher expectations. So it's a trade off really.

As for pay I get in the region of 30k a year, but for the hours etc I do I am on the lower end of the market rate. I could ask for more but I am happy with what I get, and my perks make up for any shortfall. Sometimes it's more about just being happy than getting the biggest paycheck. I was offered one job for 1000/week. I turned it down as I would have had NO life.

nannynick - I think lots of nanny employers struggle to give feedback even when things aren't going right. Not necessarily big things, but the small things. There are often threads from employers on here who are quietly seething or feel their nanny is taking advantage, but haven't actually pointed out to the nanny the thing that is annoying them. In an office if you were using the photocopier incorrectly or putting mail in the wrong place, your boss would have no problem pointing it out. But in the home, little things might be what food is eaten or who unloads the dishwasher, and it seems more personal - some employers are unable to be upfront about things that they don't like.

At my DD's bilingual school in Paris there are several degree-educated nannies around, mostly Australian or British. While families clearly employ them for their excellent English, these nannies are literally a world apart in terms of the childcare they offer their charges from the run of the mill Paris nounou. They cost a lot more too - and generally get treated better by their employers, but then, the nannies also get to pick and choose who they work for! There obviously is a market for highly educated nannies out there, and both parties know the stakes are higher.

I have to say I always gave clear instructions backed up with a written handbook, and pointed out when things were not going quite right (eg careless mixed wash accidents being a particularly common occurence - nanny repeatedly putting own jeans in washing machine with delicate fluffy baby pastel things and kids school uniform tops and dying the whole lot a grubby murky blue), plus discussed things in a meeting every couple of weeks, but even though I tried to be professional and diplomatic, my nanny reacted as though either I was being hyper fussy and picky, or these were personal slights, tbh. It makes it hard to have an adult conversation.

Although thinking about it, I have had this kid of flouncy flouncy in my day job as well, when I pointed out a mailshot had been done with the wrong addresses on the top that didn't match the names of the people they were supposed to be going to. And when I pointed out the wrong rooms had been booked and the groups would have been packed in like a Dr Zhivago cattle truck. I got a lot of rudeness and a suggestion I do it all myself. Whereas they are paid to do this and I am not.

Nothing wrong with wanting things to be right first time, BoffinMum If they are paid to book the correct size of room - then they should do so in my view.

In office environments people don't always like the feedback they get from their line manager, so not that surprising that nannies may not like the feedback they get. Letting things fester however is not good for anyone in the long term. Better in my view to get the subject aired and maybe things will change, or maybe they won't. I've learnt that with age though... if I was in my 20's my reaction to negative feedback would be more like thinking it was a personal slight, someone being hyper fussy or picky.

In my day job, I tend to give feedback as I go along, so everyone always knows where they stand with me, both when they have done a great job, and not so great. Once I got over my initial nervousness, that's how I have approached my relationship with my nanny. If she does something really good, that I hadn't expected her to do, then I tell her, but equally when she has done something I wasn't happy with, I have also told her and we have moved on. I was nervous about giving her a first appraisal but actually she was really pleased about the 99% of great things that she does that I had noticed, and as to the 1%, I just phrased that as things I thought she needed to think about doing differently, so she took it well.

I find the discussion about educated nannies really interesting. In the longer term education of DD will be a big priority but I didn't consider it as a significant factor in choosing a nanny. My nanny didn't do well at school but she is very experienced and that was more important to me as DD is my PFB and didn't want to leave her to just anyone! I know lots of very smart people who dont have an ounce of common sense

Yes, I think some of the problem is related to the fact that quite often you're dealing either with quite inexperienced people, who will tend to worry unduly about negative feedback, or with the legacy of previous employers treating nannies poorly, so that criticism was often unreasonable or the precursor to some frankly abusive behaviour.

And it's a good point about the feedback/career development thing, actually: with my first nanny we had a system of six monthly reviews - she was, after all, fairly inexperienced - and it was really helpful to sit down and say: 'this is going really well, these are the areas where I have some concerns, these are the challenges I see coming up over the next six months, what do you think?' I have let that system slip with our current nanny (much more experienced) and I am rather regretting it.

I take Foxinsocks' point about formal education not being an absolute precursor to nannying skills (observe how I bestride my fence! ) but perhaps I should refine the point - it's primarily an advantage for the parents, in that it often means someone has worked in an environment outside nannying so has an idea of how a line management relationship typically works. Also,I have a school age DS and the nanny is sometimes helping him with his homework, so I'm categorically not going to employ someone who hasn't got a basic degree of literacy.

I know lots of very smart people who dont have an ounce of common sense

That I can believe. Trouble is, how do you know who does and who doesn't have sufficient common sense to be a nanny?
If all parents are given to go on is a CV, how do you know that someone has an ounce of common sense (ideally more than an ounce)?
What If scenarios at interview may go some way to establishing how much common sense an applicant may have... though not sure how well that method would work - has anyone tried to evaluate the level of an applicants common sense?

I think the 'what if scenarios' can work but the nannies are prepared for the standard ones so you will have to be creative.

Re education i think it is not black and white. A girl who left school at 16 because she didn't like school and she is dull with no interests and hobbies or thirst for learning would be a no no for me.
But a girl who left school because of family problems or else and she is full of life and a passion for music or sports or drama would be fine.
You can have a nanny with 3 degrees who works and eats and sleeps. Who has a pessimist attidude and a negative language.
I would like someone who is 'i love challenges', 'of course you can do it', 'why not', 'lets try this'....
I think when somebody spends 10 hours a day with your child she/he passes on to the child more than the alphabet, her outlook to life will have more impact.

Of course in an ideal world you will go for the nanny who has both education and personality. But if i have to choose then i 'll go for the personality.

One method of establishing if they have common sense is ruling them out if they ignore most of the things on your job description and try to pester you in the interview to give them a completely different job with 30% more money, different hours, and 25% of the first three months off for holidays 'they have already booked'.

Or not leaving in a timely fashion when the interview is over, because they haven't made proper transport arrangements, and hanging around your house even though it's patently obvious this is inconvenient and you are expecting another candidate.

Or answering your A and E extreme scenario question with "Well, I would phone you up at work to see what you wanted me to do, and then put a cold compress on it and try to cheer the child up by telling him that having his leg hanging off wasn't that bad".