Thinking of a nanny - currently using nursery. Some advice please

[Hadeda]

I'm going back to work 4 days a week and the increase in nursery fees (extra day plus extra child) means that we will probably pay just as much for nursery as we would for a nanny.

So I'm thinking about finding a nanny for my DDs, but this is very new territory for me so would be really helpful to talk to people who already have a nanny. I think my issue is that I can see benefits for me in getting a nanny, but not sure what it gives the girls. DD1 is currently at nursery and we have been very happy with that.

For me, I may have an easier evening as I'll get home in time for bath time rather than picking them up from nursery around 6pm and then starting the evening from a standing start (so to speak). Also easier mornings (although those are DH's issue) as we don't have to get them out anywhere. It will also give cover for days when one of them has a minor illness (i.e. the coughs and colds that keep them off nursery). And, with notice, the nanny might be prepared to babysit.

For the girls, they will be looked after at home and have one to one attention. I think I have two worries. First, I'm concerned whether they will have the same opportunity to interact with other children - DD1 has a few little friends at nursery that she talks about and sees twice a week. I'm sure the nanny would go to toddler groups etc but would they make the same group of "friends"? Second thought is whether they will have the same chance to do arts and crafts that DD1 has at nursery. It's mostly just smearing paint on paper and sticking, drawing with crayons, etc. Does a nanny do this? I must be honest, I hardly ever do this sort of thing at home myself but wouldn't like DD1 to stop doing this sort of stuff altogether.

Some other more "practical" questions:

1. DD1 will be just over 2 (probably 27 months) and DD2 will be 10 months. Would a nanny look after two such young girls?
2. I'd ideally like someone to work from 7:30 - 6pm (these are the hours DD1 is at nursery). Would a nanny work these hours?
3. Nursery fees will be about £23,500. Would a nanny work for this gross salary? Nannyjob said average gross salary is £25,500. But I've spoken to a mom I know locally who had a nanny, she told me a nanny costs around £90 a day - which is about £23,400 if the nanny was full time (I calculated that as 90 x 5 (i.e. per week cost) x 52).
4. I only need 4 days a week but know that might be hard to recruit a nanny. So I've thought about a nanny share. I have a friend who will be going back to work around the same time as me who might consider a nanny share. I've assumed she'll be working 3 days a week (which I know is what she wants) and her DD will be 12 months. The nanny would then be looking after 3 very young girls. One day would be my friend's DD only, two days would be all three girls and the other two days would be my DDs. Would a nanny do this or is it just too many small children?

Sorry, lots of questions here so thank you if you've read this far, and thank you even more if you have any advice for me .

Yes nannies will do arts and crafts if you get an arty nanny who likes getting messy. Nannies often build social circles with other nannies/mums so your children will probably have a good group of friends and you can specify that nanny keeps in touch with your DDs friends from nursery.

Nanny will look after your 2 - you will probably have nannies lining up from here to the moon because they're good ages with long term job potential! Nannies do work those hours but remember to build in a good handover time at the end of the day. We also babysit (with notice and paid extra if live out)

Cost, as ever, depends on the nanny. You don't say where you're based but cost ranges from £6.50-15 per hour gross for live out. At the bottom end of the scale you'll get an unqualified nanny with a bit of experience, at the top end you get a very qualified nanny with tons of experience and there are all kinds of grey in between! Work out what's important to you and then we can tell you how much a nanny with a similar profile would cost. Live in, if you can offer it, is cheaper.

Lots of nannies want a 4 day week. You probably won't have a problem filling that.

Nanny share with those ages is possible but would start getting difficult in terms of logistics - nanny won't be able to do as many activities outside the house due to different routines/nap times, you'll need a car that will hold 3 bulky car seats and possibly a triple buggy, depending how good your DD1 is at walking and your nanny may not be quite as up for playdates etc on shared days. If not then a double buggy with a buggy board. That's not to say it's impossible and it would bring the cost down for you. As a rough guide add a third to the hourly figure (because nanny has extra hassle/two families to deal with) and divide by two (half paid by your friend, half by you). Finally on the nanny share point - do you have a similar parenting style to your friend? What happens if one party leaves the share? What happens if your children are sick? Who has to cart their child(ren) to the other's house in the morning?

Then you need to consider the additional expenses of a nanny - operating payroll (if you don't do it yourself), kitty, mileage, food, heating/lighting/wear and tear on house.

Good luck!

Thanks Frakkinaround. I'm in SW London, near Wimbledon. We're looking for a live out nanny. I guess I'd want someone with a bit of experience, say 4 or 5 years at least. Not sure if that's towards the top or bottom end of experience!! It's really encouraging to hear that nannies are after 4 days a week jobs. TBH, I was only thinking of sharing with my friend as a way to fund a full time position.

You mention mileage as a potential cost - do nannies HAVE to drive the children? I ask because my DD2 absolutely hates the car. I don't drive anywhere unless it is 100% necessary because she is so awful in the car - screams herself hoarse and soaks herself in sweat. Hopefully this will change over time 'cos it's driving me mad! - but I would prefer it if the nanny wasn't driving while she is like that. We do live within walking distance of the local library, park and train station and bus ride to a tube station.

The other costs (apart from payroll) I expect will probably be around what I cost anyway now while I'm at home on maternity leave so do-able.

Thanks for your advice.

No they don't have to drive at all, but if you're in the middle of nowhere then it's an almost unavoidable cost unless you want a crazy housebound nanny and your DC to have no friends.

4 or 5 years experience live out in SW London you're probably looking at £9+ gross. Call it £10/hour for ease of calculation and you're looking at roughly £110/day which is £440/week and £22,800/year.

One benefit of a nanny which has not yet been mentioned is that you can choose activities for the girls which would not be available at a nursery or childminder. ~For example, if you want themto learn to swim, you can have nanny take them to swimming lessons (or possibly even teach them herself). You can choose who your children do/don't hang out with. I leave the bulk of the organising to the nanny. But, sometimes I will notice DD is not spending time with another child with whom she used to be close and I'll ask nanny to arrange a play date with that child.

If you did go down the road of a nanny share, I think a 33% increase is rather steep. More like %15-20 would be reasonable. If I was asked to take on more responsibility at work but within the same hours I already work, there is no way I would be offered a %20 raise.

However, frakkin mentioned b-sitting for extra if the nanny is live-out. I think this applies also to live-in.

Also, I notice you are talking about the costs in terms of gross salary. Remember to look at the whole cost of hiring a nanny. There are weekly expenses (probably around £20/week), transportation (bus/tube pass is definitely fine), activity fees if you sign the kids up for any specific activities, holiday pay, possibly a mobile phone. In our case, the nanny takes the kids to swimming/tennis at the gym so there is a gym membership for the nanny as well.

You pay extra for live in babysits, Athene? Most nannies have 1 night a week contracted babysit included when live in! The notice still applies though. Not that it's always heeded...

Personally I asked for, and got, a third above with a nanny share but there's nothing stopping you offering lower. I might have accepted a 25% increase but I was oy going from £6 to £8 and was probably underselling myself on the first place! The thing from a nanny POV is you have 2 employers to keep happy, 2 families to consider with holiday dates, the possibility that one might drop out and obviously the additional child(ren) which are more difficult to handle together than siblings because there are always tiny differences in the way things are done. There's an element of hassle and insecurity with shares IMO!

But seeing as you'd only be doing that to make up the full week it's probably not that much of an issue.

Of I course I pay extra. She has set hours, and if I exceed them (with prior agreement of course) we then have a set rate of additonal pay per hour (or per night if she is working through to her usual start time).

This week, DH and I were both away Mon-Thursday. So, of course we have to pay Mon, Tues., and Wed. overnights in addition to the usual salary.

Ah so you don't have it in your contract that she sits one night for free? I've always thought it was normal for live ins to have a nights babysitting on a weeknight included in the weekly pay but if it's not in the contract then of course you should pay.

IIRC your nanny works long hours with an early start anyway!

Yes, so I think it's only fair if she is given the right to decline a b-sit if she doesn't want to do it. (unless I have to travel for work, in which case I need her to be available).

But, I'm sure if it's in nanny's contract her pay is a bit higher to account for that. So I'm sure it works out the same.

i also though live in nannies least did 1 babysit included in salary a week

hadeda - a nanny will def make your life easier as a working parent

1. yes nannies will LOVE these ages
2. hours fine

3.age/experience depending you can find a nanny who will work for that salary

1. most nannies LOVE a 4 day week - some are happy to do a nannyshare with 3 under 3 - others wont

yes nannies will socailise (lots) and if there are friends your dc already have , the nanny will be happy to continue

most nannies i know will not take a job on that you cant drive/go in car - but sure in london you wont have this problem

i work in middle of nowhere and HAVE to drive to go anywhere

Thanks very much for the replies.

Can I ask another question please?
I know people advertise on gumtree and on nannyjob. But, as a complete first timer in this area, would I be better off using an agency? Or is it really just common sense - discuss what you want them to do with the girls, see if you and the girls like the nanny and the nanny likes you and then off you go?

On the car - I prob didn't make myself very clear. I don't want to ban driving altogether, but it isn't a first choice at the mo as DD2 gets so hysterical. Bad foor her and dangerous distraction for the driver! You are definitely not housebound here if you don't drive.

Are nannies with 4-5 years experience really earning 9 gross an hour, live-out? I would have thought it would be higher.
Anyone work in Wimbledon area / have a nanny in that area who can confirm roughly what current rates are?
I would not expect a nanny to be the cheaper option, with 2 children at nursery. It may not be that much higher but I would have thought it was higher by a few thousand a year. However there are benfits to having a nanny, some housework to name one thing a nursery won't do.
Long term a nanny may be better as when eldest starts school, their hours at school may be quite a bit different to being at nursery.

Do you think I'm being over optimistic with my experience requirement then? I really have no idea about this at all . And no idea what a "brand new" nanny can do - are they likely to have been on a course of sorts? I've seen talk of first aid courses and CRB checks so I thought a nanny had that and then found work - which is how I set my experience level.

I have a nanny and two children of similar ages to yours - my DS (2.4 years) was already in nursery 2 days a week but I started working again in September and it worked out to be a similar cost to have them both looked after by a nanny than going to nursery and for us it has been a real success.

I only work two days a week, so DS goes to pre-school one of the mornings that our nanny works so she takes DD (11 months)that morning and then she has them both the rest of the time. She has scoped out all the local groups and activities in the area, and tends to rotate amongst them depending on weather, how DS and DD are feeling etc. and they are getting plenty of social activity through the different groups they go to.

My nanny loves doing crafts - however, with the ages of DS and DD it can be difficult for her to actually plan craft activities with DS (who still needs a fair bit of help) unless DD is asleep (but DD likes to get very involved with everything that is going on around her). That is where pre-school has been great as DS still gets an opportunity to do this kind of stuff there. I know that this will change as DD gets older and our nanny can do more of these types of activities in tandem with the two of them.

I found my nanny through gumtree - just took her up on her references, she was already Ofsted registered, CRB checked, first aid certificated - for me it was really instinct as we seemed to get on really well and she hit it off instantly with the children.

In terms of what it gives my children - I would say the security of someone who has quickly become part of the family and they are really happy to see, no handover stress (which I always had at nursery), having activities tailored to what kind of mood they are in, getting to nap in their own beds, etc., and also for me to have an input into the kinds of things they are doing (eg. if they've already done a certain activity a couple of times already that week). For us it's a solution that has really suited our family and I'm really happy about it (and very lucky to have found a fab nanny). I do know where you're coming from though - I was going through a very similar thought process a few months ago.

My benchmark on experience is 2 years of childcare and a previous live in position. I do agree with Nick that a live out nanny in Wimbledon is probably not more cost effective than 2 in nursery. However, if you could manage live-in then the nanny might be a cheaper.

"Do you think I'm being over optimistic with my experience requirement then?"

No. I feel that a live-out nanny in your area will cost you more than £9 gross per hour. Looking at NannyJob jobsearch results it looks like it other jobs are offering around £9 net, rather than gross. £9 net is close to £12 gross (based on a nanny working 2600 hours per year and having usual single persons taxcode, for 09/10 tax year - with aid of ListenToTaxman.com).

NannyJob Jobsearch results:
Wimbledon £475 per week (assumed to be net)
Wimbledon Chase £8-£10 net
Wimbledon £450-£500 net per week
Wimbledon £450 net per week
Wimbledon £9-£10 net per hour

I can recommend getting a nanny. Both my DSs were in nursery 3 days a week but with the eldest starting school it meant that we needed extra help with driving him there. All in all the nanny has worked out cheaper than the nursery.

I was worried too about DS2 interacting with childern his own age while DS1 was at school but it's not a problem at all. She takes them to the same toddler group as I did. That is when she has time - they are always doing things like painting, drawing, baking, going to the library. She's a gem.

Also she helps with the boys laundry, changes their bed linen and often cooks so much tea for them that there is always leftovers for me! Yum.

It wasn't hard to find someone for only 3 days a week either, I had loads of CVs. I recommend going through an agency though, they were a great help.

Good luck!

Unqualified with 4 years experience? £9 gross is a minimum and that depends on the experience. Agencies in the area such as Gina's and Buttons are quoting £350+ net for qualified with exp (presumably 1 or 2 years), which for a 4 day week based on a 10 hour day is only £280+ net. Top nanny are quoting £340-480 for up to 50 hours. Of the agenices nick linked to there Ideal, Fulham and Nannies Inc often have jobs paying above market rate (which is one reason I like Nannies Inc so much )

Qualified nannies have usually done a 2 year course which involves placements in nurseries, schools and private homes (NNEB, BTEC or DCE) or a work based course in a nursery, school or private home (NVQ3). There are other qualifications out there though. With 4/5 years experience a qualification will still make a nanny more expensive - it stops mattering when they have about 10 years experience!

Was just about to post and say that I thought your salary expectations for a nanny in your area were very hopeful when I saw Nannynick has got there first.
And do not underestimate the cost of activities etc during the day (paints and craft bits and pieces, playgroups,) and nanny's food on top of children's food.
I was part of a nannyshare involving 3 pre-school children at one point - it was ok, but we had to buy a car which could take 3 car seats in the back and the bigger two (3 yr olds) had to take turns in the double buggy with the baby (or balance in the footwell which wrecked the buggy). Does get the cost lower though, so worth thinking about. If you do the nanny-share make sure you have covered nanny's holiday (how she books it and lets both families know and keep track of it, especially since some days are sole charge for one family or the other).

I think you might find a nanny share easier if the share was a SAHM who could afford a day off once a week. Then nanny just looks after one family's children at a time.

fridayschild - that senario would not be a nanny share, it would be a nanny that had 2 jobs with 2 seperate employers as the children are not looked after at the same time. It would also not give the op any savings in cost.

I don't live far from you and pay £25000 gross for a 4 day a week live out nanny, who is unqualified but has 7 years' experience and is Ofsted registered. On top of that, Employer's NI is about £2-3K (I think). Plus food, outings, heating... Probably near £30K!

Bear in mind that, as with all management situations, managing an employee, esp underperforming one, is not easy. Nannies are more difficult because their jobs are more personal - you have a vested interest in continuity, so it is not easy to dismiss them even in cases of gross misconduct.

If you're lucky, you'll find a good nanny who is a good employee as well as a good with children, but it is not easy (IME) to find someone who is both. You have the additional concerns of sick days, maternity leave, holidays, redundancy pay... for instance, when I was looking at CVs and refs from agencies, the most common no of days taken off sick was 10 to 15 days per year, which is way more than mine.

Sorry to be a bit negative (and no offence to nannies out there - I'm sure there are lots of you who are fantastic, as is my current nanny) but I just thought you should be aware of the potential downsides of a nanny. I would have stuck with my nursery if DC was happier there.

greybird - I feel your £30K total cost is probably fairly realistic for inside the M25. I know I cost probably cost my employer around £25-£27k, outside of the M25... for a 4 day week.

I don't know if this is an option, but if you can swing a live-in, you can knock the cost down significantly. We put two kids in one room in order to to do this. It is so much better for us than a nursery/childminder... and it is definitely cheaper than our childminder options.

Our nanny doesn't have any formal nanny qualification. She is not British so the CRB/ISA thing is pointless. She is fab fab fab. She even knew what to do when DS cracked his head at the playground and I was uncontactable at work.

And she is a whole lot cheaper than a live-out nanny would be.

So if you really want a nanny and you are able and willing to make some domestic compromises this might be an iotion for you.

Thank you very much for all the advice. I think £12 per hour and the other costs mentioned is still fine for us.

DH and I have had a chat about it. I'm a solicitor (Magic Circle firm) and going back 4 days a week effectively means I will trying to be doing 5 days work in 4. And DH works at a bank so there's no chance he can get home early. So for me, the added benefit of the girls being at home and fed by the time I get home at 6pm is really valuable as I'm likely to be working in the evenings too. When I went back after DD1 trying to get her to bed in the evenings was a nightmare - she got all hyped up leaving nursery and comming home and then trying to wind her down again before 8:30 or 9pm was very difficult. And then I still needed to log on and get some work done!

So I think we'll start having a look at who is out there and, if we find the right person, go with it.

I am rather about the number of sick days greybird mentioned though!!

It's worth asking any potential nanny about their sickness record - and following this through with their references. In my experience most nannies take very few sick days as we are aware of the knock on effect of the parent needing to take time off work too. Also, as a nanny, it is an option to go into work and have an easier day - lying on the sofa reading a book with the children or watching a dvd for example, somthing you couldn't do in an office. I've had ½ a day off in the last 20 months and 2 occasions where I have gone in to work feeling under the weather.

If your nanny has a good circle of nanny friends that are familiar with your children then often nannies will fill in for each other if they are able.