Does/would/should having a partner who smokes affect your CM business?

[sparkle12mar08]

And do you have or are there any (ncma?, ofsted?) policies in place to set out standards etc?

The background - my cm's partner smokes, though never in the house and I do believe her on this. In two years I've never noticed the house itself smelling of smoke, or of too much air freshner. However on at least three previous occasions my elder child has come home with his clothes or hair smelling of stale smoke. I know what this smells like - both my parents smoked. It's not cooking smells, exhaust smells or anything else. It's stale smoke.

The third time it happened we spoke to her about it and she was predictably shocked and uncomfortable, anyone would be, hell we were. The previous two times we stewed in embarassed silence, as you do But we moved on and all tried to work out how this could be happening. My own theory is that the partner is coming home from smoking at work and hanging contaminated outdoor clothes up and our children's coats are picking it up (it's almost always on the coat or hat, and changing bag). I think this because the smoke is not fresh and not particularly heavy, I don't think I belive (or don't want to believe?) that they are around the smoking when it's actually happening.

The situation now has an extra layer as our younger child, 11 months old, is starting the settling in period as I'm back to work in a fortnight. The first full day yesterday and came home with coat and hair smelling stale. So I've done the deed and mentioned it again this morning and again she's shocked that it's happening, are we sure etc, and it's been v uncomfortable. I just don't know where to go from here. I feel I'm letting our children down by not having them out instantly, yet I know that finding care for two will be that much harder, and my elder loves being there - he adores her.

But it's not acceptable is it, for a child to come home from any childcare setting smelling of stale smoke so that the first thing the parent notices is the smell? I'm crap with confrontation and situations where the balance of power is unbalanced - I know that she needs us as we're 80% of her place income, but I feel v deferential to her and find it incredibly difficult to deal with the complex nature of the cm-parent relationship. It's a personal one by definition, they're a replacement mum for all intents and purposes 8 hours a day, yet there is an aspect of employment/workplace professionalism, or at least there should be, and then there's money on top.

So, are there any official lines that I need to be aware of, and please help me with any and all suggestions about how to tackle her personally, and the potential for resloving the contamination/smell issue in situ.

V grateful to all

smokers tend to stand at the window in bad weather as opposed to going outside

even if he never ever ever smokes in the house, even if he sits beside your child the smell will be lingering

thats disgusting. id be very angry and find a new cm

Thanks nailpolish, but have you any suggestions on how we could tackle it constructively with her and her partner? Are there things he could do to minimise contamination? How do I approach her personally given that I find situations like this v difficult, is there a sort of script I could bear in mind etc?

if he is standing outside for a smoke then coming back in the house, he could wear a coat and not hang it beside your childs

also, im sure he could wash his hands and that would help. ideally showering when he gets in from work, and not smokign til your child ahs left for the day

the only way would be to stop smoking though,

I wonder if he smokes in the car? The stale smoke could be lingering in the car and thats where the kids are getting it from....

Ofsted and NCMA both say (as does the law now I believe) that you must not smoke anywhere where the children are likely to be and that includes the car. I suspect it is maybe happening without the CMs knowledge. For her sake as well as your children's you need to sit down with her and say this has got to stop. Even more ideal if her partner can be told at the same time - he is putting her business at risk not to mention your DCs!

re how to tackle it.....

Explain first how happy eldest daughter is with her and loves coming etc BUT you have serious concerns about the smoke issue. She needs to know how her partners behaviour could affect her business and the health of the children she cares for.

My DH has a dirty job coming home covered in oil and the like and with shitty boots etc. He knows the rules - his stuff goes in its own cupboard locked away from the children (including my own!) and if he happens to be home early enough when I am still working he gets straight in the shower and fresh clothes before even saying hello to anyone. Its sad for him I am sure but its my rules to keep his dirty stuff from contaminating the childrens. I even wash his stuff separately!

Your CM could make this work if she gets a system in place BUT it needs to change rapidly or else you need to go elsewhere.....good luck

It is a tricky one.

My DH is a secret smoker, although I can tell when he walks in our back door that he has been outside for a cigarette. However, he never smokes in our car, within the house and our child never, ever smells of smoke. Believe me, I can detect the smell of smoke at 100 paces so I would smell it on our child.

I suspect there is more smoking going on inside the house and car then you aware of. I wonder if the partner thinks it ok to smoke when the children aren't there, so it lingers within the house?

Personally, after these many incidences I'd be looking for alternative care.

I'm with llareggub.

I can't abide smoking but my DH smokes, not lots but smokes all the same. My DS NEVER smells of it at all. My DH washes his hands, never smokes in the car or anywhere in the house. The only thing that ever smells of it is DH just afterwards!! I don't even smell it on his (DH) coat and I too can smell it at a hundred paces!! It would not be on coats and things if he just smoked outside. I don't believe it.

I have to agree that as its not the first ( or second....! ) time i would look for alternative care

you would never stop worrying about it ( well i wouldnt !)

if you can smell it on your children someone is smoking in the house. my sil smokes and my dd never smells of smoke coming out of her hosue even though i can smell smoke in the house (she smokes at the back door).

i can understand how uncomfortable you are raising it with the cm. either you accept it or move your children.

good luck.

Is your oldest child old enough to ask if they have seen smoking whilst there?

As a cm with a smoking hubby I've found it very difficult to eliminate the smoke altogether. There have been occasions when I've failed. The first time - I left a mindee's jumper over the back of the sofa and, while we were out, dh smoked in the chair behind it - the jumper would have been subjected to all the smoke. But I didn't notice any smell when I put the jumper back on the mindee and the person collecting the child didn't say anything. It was a week or so later before parent approached me about it and I worked out what had happened. So dh agreed not to smoke indoors any more, even if we're not in. But that family gave notice anyway.

Then last year a parent was embarrassed to tell me they had smelled smoke on their child. I was mortified - even more so because it had happened before and I though I'd sorted it. It took a while to figure out what had happened. That day dh had sat beside mindee and helped her with a craft activity. And he was wearing his smelly work clothes at the time. I should have noticed the smell on his clothes but as much as I hate smoking, I guess I've gotten used to the way he smells .

I have separate coat hooks for mindees in the playroom so their clothes are never hung together with dh's. Hadn't thought about insisting he shower when he comes in. But I only have one bathroom - so I'd have to ensure they all had a chance to go wc b4 hubby takes a very quick shower. My wc gets a lot of use after school - the children avoid using toilets at school it seems.

You're right that its not acceptable, suggest you ask for an appointment at a mutually convenient time to have a chat about it. You can take the opportunity to tell her how much you and your family value her, BUT you have to get to the bottom of how the smoke is transferring so the problem can be eliminated. If she doesn't have a non-smoking policy, perhaps its time she writes one? EYFS (p.27) includes a legal requirement for childminders to "ensure children are in a smoke-free environment". The non-statutory advice is "Providers should have a no smoking policy which ensures that no one smokes in a room, or
outside play area, when children are present or about to be present. If, exceptionally, children are
expected to use any space that has been used for smoking, providers should ensure that there is
adequate ventilation to clear the atmosphere."

Hope it gets resolved.

Thanks all. I think I know you're right. I've also got a good rl friend putting a rocket up me too I just find it very very difficult to know how to approach these types of situation properly, and what to actually say, how to act etc. That sounds wussy I'm sure, but it's real for me. I think we need to sit down as a couple over the weekend and hammer out exactly what we want to say, what actions we expect, and what we want to hear her saying in return. RL friend also pointed out that it's not necessarily us that should be coming up with the solutions, CM needs to know that her business is on the line and she needs to be the one solving it, or we simply remove them. Easier said than done, and I know that she knows it too, but I can certainly start putting feelers out about who's got spaces etc. Attendance during notice period would ba a nightmare though

So second question, is it discriminatory or whatever to ask on the phone before setting up an interview whether anyone in the household smokes? If it's going to be a dealbreaker for us I don't want to waste anyones time.

Libra - probably not, he's three and I don't think he reliably understands what smoking is. He's certainly never seen it in any of our families or friends, ever; we don't mention it in the street and has never seen it on television.

I do try and ask him occasionally whether the partner is home and has played with them, and sometimes it's yea, sometimes it's no. I like the man, I've met him numerous times, he's a decent bloke. Works hard for his living doing manual, outside work, loves his family eats regularly with them, etc etc. He's not a monster because he smokes. But you're all right, this is bothering me more and more, and is increasing in frequency, and it's the fact that it has been mentioned before and nothing has changed.

Probably the most difficult thing is that she hasn't seen (or should that be smelt?!) that there is a problem. It's not denial as such, more that it seems such a shock to her.

Ayla, thank you so much for replying! I need to pick your brains on the EYFS thing though. Would that cover the fact for example that if he does smoke indoors at night, that children are nothere for a further 8-12 hours, or would that be covered by the adequate ventilation point? I too have wondered if cm is simply used to the smell, it's only when you're a totally smoke free family that you are so aware of it I think. That's why I'm sometimes unsure when people say they can smell it a mile off and so on, tbh.

But how on earth do I suggest/insist that her beloved partner - her children's father for goodnesss sake - needs to have separate changing and clothes storage facilities and to shower before he touches my children, without sounding like a total loon? The implications are awful - that he's not fit to be around the children, he's somehow dirty, and if I'm unhappy about it why isn't she? Do you see what I'm getting at, or am I being oversensitive to her feelings at the risk of our own?

Does the CM smoke? She might not when she is working, but I'd guess that if she is a smoker herself she probably can't detect the smell of smoke on others.

llaregub, no she doesn't and I believe her. But her partner does and I suspect as ayla has said, that she has simply gotten used to it.

I don't think you'll sound like a loon if you explain that you've done some research into similar situations and this is the solution that other childminders have offered - it sounds perfectly reasonable to me, and actually is it any different from somebody who works in an office all day coming home and changing out of a suit? I think it's pretty normal to want to change into different clothes at the end of the working day if they are either uncomfortable or smelly / dirty.

I think the key (as you already know! ) to this is that at the end of the day you do have a business relationship with your childminder, and she needs to recognise that you expect a level of professionalism from her. However, to give you confidence that she is taking this seriously, I would still ask her to come up with solutions in the first instance, and have this up your sleeve if her solutions don't come up to scratch.

sparkle12mar08 this is just my opinion but you mention that your eldest adores his CM, this for me would be the main thing, if this was the case I would do everything in my power to ensure you and the CM are on the same page (sorry about the cliche) when it comes to the smoking as one of the posters has already said sit down with her and explain that you want this resolved so both you and CM are happy going forward.
HOWEVER even if it did happen again as long as I was 100% sure that my child was not actually being exposed to the smoke i.e. the smell transference was from clothes then I would probably let it go.

sparkle - if hes an understandign hubbie he will not mind nor take offense if she asks him to have separate place for coats etc - maybe he could store his coats in their bedroom as that sone room that mindees generally don't enter in a CM house.

My hubbie doesn't smoke as I said earlier but he does have manky work clothes - he understands that its for the safety of hygeine of the children and he nevers questions his "quarantene"!!

As for the discriminatory bit - no not at all - I am often asked if anyone smokes and I point to the very obvious No smoking sign by the front door and am happy to reassure parents that this isn't something I allow. Even when guests come they are to smoke on the drive - tough I'm afraid if its raining - my children's health and that of mindees is paramount.

Don't feel bad about it -I wouldn't be happy to have my DCs coming home smelling of smoke!

Just to add, could it be that the parents of another mindee smoke? I had this and had to keep her belongings in a completely seperate place ( and I put them in a plastic bag) so it wouldn't transfer smell of smoke onto other childrens belongings. At one point I was "ousting" all her stuff as soon as she came through the door too.

I personally would never send my child to a cm who had any smoking in the house whatsoever - whether they/partner smokes whilst your child is there, or after hours, it doesn't matter - the smoke (poison) is in the air, the curtains, the furniture etc.

I am a severe asthmatic and it is a huge trigger for me.. and so many more kids are getting asthma nowadays and smoking is a huge factor to consider.

I would call for a meeting asap... you need to be totally frank with her. Communication is key btwn parent and cm. I wish you all the best with sorting this out! x

She probably can't tell tbh.

Our downstairs neighbours smoke like chimneys - obviously nothing we can do about that. When we stay at my parents I always notice that the bag of (clean) clothes we take smell slightly stale . I don't notice until I'm in a completely smoke-free environment.

If her husband smokes she is unlikely to be as aware of the smell as you are.

shona - do you mean the smoke kind of infiltrates?! Wow thats a nightmare!

i get the feeling that you dont want ot move your child. that is totally understandable. so thereofre she is probablyh a nice person and you haveno worries about approaching her about this

just say "im really upset that my children smell of smoke, i realise you are doing al you can at the moment and its not deliberate by your partners but i have been thinking about this and have come up with a few ideas, what do you think?" then suggest her dp showers when he comes in, washes his hands when he comes in from havinga fag int he garden, he keeps his coat seperate

she will just be relieved you are not handing in your notice

but i agree it could be the parents of other mindees...ask about taht too

You can download EYFS at teachernet. The only legal requirement is the bit that says "Specific legal requirements:
Smoking:
Providers must ensure that children are in a smoke-free environment."

IMO, technically, most childminders will have breached this at some point or other - in the street you don't always notice if someone has a cigarette until you smell it. So by the time you choose another route or ask someone to put it out, you've already brought the mindees too close. However, thats not what this thread is about. I think its perfectly reasonable to expect, if you send your child to a smoke-free childcare setting, that your child and your belongings will not smell of smoke when you collect. Its possible Ofsted/DCSF might consider that the "spirit" of the EYFS requirements intended to include smoky objects as well as the smoke itself.

However, EYFS does not mention storage of smoky clothing etc, so if no-one smokes in the presence of mindees, rooms are aired, and the childminder is following the advisory comments (the bit about having a non smoking policy, airing rooms etc) then it might be argued that she is following EYFS to the letter. While its generally accepted that passive smoking is dangerous, I've not found anything to prove the view that being in contact with smoky items might be dangerous.

I don't think she'll think you're a loon. She must have considered the possibility that you could complain to Ofsted if she cannot resolve this. I agree with your RL friend's comments that it is her responsibility to find a solution, not yours. BUT you have already explained the problem and she has not yet resolved it. So I think you should offer her your list of ideas but don't say she must do all of these or you'll terminate the contract. Perhaps say, this is what some other childminders do so thought it might be helpful, but feel free to ignore this list if you have another solution THAT WORKS.