Nanny crisis - please help (very long)!!!!!!!!

[NannyNightmare]

Namechanged but am a very regular poster on both this board and others amongst the Mumsnet winds.

I have 3 DC's and we have had our current nanny for 4 months. Children are aged 8, 2.5, and not quite 1. Nanny has generally been great, I come home to find a spotless house, nanny diary with balanced meals listed and all children eating well, happy, and normally reading books together.

I came home today from work about 2 hours early (which I never do) to hear my 8-year-old crying in his room with the door locked (his room is on ground floor). We have a very old house whereby doors can only be locked with big rusty keys hung above fireplace that we NEVER use. I walked into kitchen where nanny was force-feeding my 2.5-year-old a massive plate of mashed potato and nothing else. When I say force-feeding, I mean by daughter was strapped into her high chair, nanny had one hand opening her mouth, other hand with spoon shoving it in.

I promptly said, "Nanny, what on EARTH are you doing? Why is DS locked in his room and STOP doing that with DD1" whereby she looked horrified, stood up, went to lounge and got her bag, and left WITHOUT SAYING A WORD.

I took DD1 out of chair, cleaned her up and calmed her down, let out DS who said Nanny had her boyfriend over that day and the children were supposed to play in DS's room quietly. He said DD2 was crying, he went to get Nanny, Nanny locked him in the room, shouted and swore, dropped 2 DD's in their rooms, and he hadn't seen her since then.

On the kitchen side was the nanny diary where I saw she had already listed DD as having eaten 'Mashed potato - all, Chicken - all, Green beans - all'.

DS is generally a shy boy but he doesn't make up many tales and the fact she just left with absolutely no conversation whatsoever has me believing him. Where do I go to report this, I have called/texted/emailed nanny and had no reply (naturally). I have canceled our direct debit into her account, we found her privately and not through an agency. I am very tempted to contact her previous references and inform them of this to warn potential other employers.

Who do I ring? Police?

Re the ISA person, I'm not their PR person (although I appreciate I sound like it ).

It's just that as a mum searching for her first nanny I think it is a great idea which could make life a lot easier for parents to be confident they're choosing the right carer.

As far as I can make out, the ISA will use both police info and reports from parents (and clearly the latter is open to abuse from people making false reports for malicious reasons) but I guess it would be the job of the ISA experts to sift this and make the correct call. I don't think they would bar anyone without very good reason.

But as I say, this is only my own understanding and I think the whole process is still being developed, so it's hard to know. I assume they'll communicate with everyone affected (schools, nannies, childminders, hospitals, parents, etc etc etc) once they know exactly how it will work.

poppy My son is a sensitive little soul, he is very quick to take blame for nearly everything - as I said, he doesn't normally tell on his friends even if they hit him, make a mess, etc., he would much rather stay friends with them than tell on them. So yes, he is very capable of thinking that.

Nanny has replied via e-mail.

"Dear XXXX,

I would like to say that DS was behaving extremely badly the other day, he had hit DD1 and pinched DD2, was very backchatting me, and would not eat his lunch just to make a fuss so I put him in his bedroom. He kept kicking the door open and running back into the room, and since he is a big boy I could not keep picking him up and putting him back in so I locked his door. I was going to go back and get him in a few minutes.

With DD1 she was being a cheeky monkey and not eating her lunch or her tea today and normally she is very good. This is probably because DS was playing up at lunch so I got angry with her and made sure she had to eat some of it, she really likes potato so she was just being silly. I will drop keys off on Saturday because I know you are all out at swimming so if you can leave my reference on the table I will drop the keys in the box. Thank you and goodbye.

Nannny"

Not sure what to say back to this really. May give her a taste of her own medicine and ignore her. The cow thinking we will give her a reference! DS is a very good boy, no way do I believe all of the things she's said that he did. He has never once hit his sisters, never mind pinching.

Sorry to all those I've put off nannies, I just needed reassurance from you all more than anything that I wasn't going off the deep end. I have been in touch with a few agencies so hopefully will find a nice temp soon, although to be honest I am rather dreading it.

What a cheeky girl!

I would be inclined to ignore her too, but you need your keys. (I hope she hasn't made copies).

I would reply to her email and say she can drop keys off on Saturday - but be there, which she won't expect. Get the keys from her and tell her there's no reference. What reference did she honestly expect you to give after this behaviour? Beggars belief!

Make sure you are there on Saturday and have a good talking to her!
No way go out and let her come in thats shocking she thinks that.
If I was you I would get a friend to look after the DC 's and you and DH sit her down and lay it down simple for her - make her feel like . Even though you arent going to keep her or anything just make her know that she is going to find it rather hard to get a job as you have contacted all the local agencys and nexxt time she needs a CRB it will come up - i know it wont but just to make her sweat like she mad your children!

OR JUST GIVE US MUMSNETTERS YOUR ADDRESS AND WE WILL ALL WAIT OUTSIDE FOR HER

But I think you should write her a reference. And it should say that you wouldn't use her again or recommend others to do so. You should state the facts clearly and leave it at that. Poor you.

agree with BIOTB.

Very sorry that you are going through this.

Thankyou and Goodbye???!! That would infuriate me.

Definitely be there. She's planning on letting herself in to your house whilst you're out!?

Unfortunately you do have to be very careful if you write a bad reference (hopefully someone who really knows about employhment law etc will come along and elaborate).

I had a TERRIBLE maternity nurse once who really didn't know her arse from her elbow. By the time I really clocked her, I couldn't face getting someone else in a giant last minute expense, and as I trusted her (not to harm the baby etc) and this was our second child (ie I more or less knew what I was doing etc!), I decided that she was better than no-one at all.

She chased me for a reference and I eventually gave her what I thought was a very neutral civil reference that any experienced mother would be able to real between the lines with (it didn't seem fair to give her a bad reference, as I was too postnatally zonked to face being able to actually complain to her face about it all....). So many women subsequently called and to "discuss your lovely reference"....

God, what am I saying. If you give her a rubbish reference, she could get legal on you. If you give her a neutral reference ("xxx worked for our family for 4 months between xxx and xxx, her duties included...."), then no-one will know, and obviously you are not going to give her a good reference.

Do you owe her any money for work already done? If so, I would actually get the locks changed, take the cost of that out of the money owed to her and post her a cheque for any outstanding amount owed by you. You are then in/on (?) the moral high ground. I don't think I would want to see her again, and neither would I want her letting herself into your house while you are out.

God, how grim. So sorry to hear you are going through this. I live in the same neck of the woods as you, if there is anything I can do, let me know....

You do need to be careful when you write a reference in that if you say something that is untrue then they could take you to court over it. So stick very carefully to the facts and you will be fine. You are allowed to give a bad reference but you just need to be 100% confident that you can support it.

Also, if you give a bad reference (whether she can prove it is factually correct or not), she is never going to use it herself. So you would only be satisfying yourself on some level, or not giving her the satisfaction of "having got away with it".

Agree, contact local agencies, etc and warn them of your bad experiences.

Ok I will get flowery over here to confirm but I think this is what you write:-

1. Notice of dismissal (dated 23rd Feb). Dear XXX. This letter serves to formally notify you of your immediate dismissal on the grounds of gross misconduct. Physically locking my son in his room, and strapping my daughter down in order to force-feed her are acts of such a shocking nature that I have no option but to dismiss you immediately, without notice. On being caught in both of these acts you furthermore chose to walk out of your duties immediately and without explanation. I am unable to trust you to care for my children in a professional manner. You are dismissed without notice, without pay in lieu of notice, and without our good wishes for the future. Yours sincerely, etc."

2. Reference
   " To whom it may concern:
   X worked from date (a) until date (b) in the role of sole-care nanny for three children aged a,b,c. She was dismissed on 23rd Feb for gross misconduct. A copy of her notice of dismissal is attached. Should you require any further information, please submit any questions that you have in writing. Yours faithfully, etc"

You are perfecty in your rights to give people a bad reference so long as the employee concerned was actually aware that you were not satisfied with her behaviour. Normally you should notify them that they need to improve and give them a chance to do so, but in the case of gross misconduct that woudl obviously not apply.

With regard to references it is always best to stick to absolute undisputed fact and nto to allow emotion or opinion to creep in.

I will just leg it over to the employment board to ask flowery (residnet font of all knowledge in these respects) to check over what I have suggested..

orangina (or anyone else for that matter) Do you have any past nannies you would recommend? I'm only going by word of mouth this time for the recruitment process. Don't particularly trust agencies (which is why we hired her privately anyway) but now I don't trust someone found privately either.

Squiffy Thank you so much that is exactly what I was looking for. I will be sure to do that (and keep in on hold and wait for flowerybeanbag to respond as well (yes I know her too, as I said I'm a regular on many boards ).

DS has asked me this afternoon "Does this mean you won't go back to work anymore Mummy? Yay!"

NannyNightmare... we have had 2 other nannies in the past, both of whom we were happy with, but unfortunately nanny #1 is no longer in the UK (her visa ran out, she is working abroad now) and nanny #2 now works in a different line of work (she came to nannying through the aupair/aupair plus/mothers help route, and we knew it wasn't a lifelong career choice for her). So can't personally recommend just now, no. We found all our nannies on Gumtree, and I found the past employers references (by telephone) invaluable. Have never used an agency and wouldn't trust them to do the reference checking anyway (ie, would always reference check myself).

Will put my thinking cap on, and if I come up with any bright ideas, I'll CAT you (can I CAT you with a namechange?)

Are you looking for full time live out 5 days a week?

(heart wrenching response from your DS... exactly the kind of thing I would get from DD.... )

Nannynightmare I am shocked at her responce I don't think your over reacting either.

As for ref I wouldn't give her one as your not allowed to give a bad reference so you refusing the references would have the same effect if you know what I mean. As I for one would not hire a nanny thats previous employer wouldn't give a reference.

your poor ds nannynightmare - her explanation is interesting.... what a shock it is that children play up at meal times -who saw that coming? if everyone on here kicked off everytime their kids messed about at mealtimes... frankly I am amazed she even had the nerve to think this was an excuse (well I'm not really in circs) and as to asking for a reference.

think the refusing to give a reference is probably easier than giving one that will eiither create bad feeling or be ignored -she is basically screwed cos as pingping says I'd not hire anyone whose previous employers refused a reference.

btw what does your dh think nannynightmare -does he still think you're overreacting (you're not by the way - showed dh your post and he'd have done the same as you)

at her responce to you

i agree with a basic referende of "nanny worked as s/c nanny from x date til 23rd feb, when she was fired without notice for gross misconduct; here is my name / email / address and i would be happy for you to contact me."

good luck in finding new childcare

Hi nannynightmare

I agree with Squiffy's letter (1) to the nanny. Had she been with you longer than a year I would have advised you slightly differently, only in terms of covering yourself a bit more, but as she has only been with you 4 months, there is no need to be concerned about her rights in any way, and I think that letter would be entirely appropriate in the circumstances.

I actually think refusing to give a reference might be a better option than Squiffy's letter (2). Simply because she won't use a reference like that anyway so it seems a bit pointless tbh. As she has only been with you 4 months unfortunately what will happen is she will just not include this job in her employment history and will explain away the time in some other way. So phoning local agencies and the other references as you are doing is the only thing you can (and should) do in terms of preventing her working with children elsewhere. Writing a bad reference like that isn't going to help. You should put in letter (1) to her that you are choosing not to give her a written reference as all it will say is that she was dismissed for gross misconduct and cannot be trusted with children, and you would be obliged to be honest about those facts in any reference. You could then say that she is welcome to give your details to potential future employers if she would like to, bearing in mind those are the details you would provide to anyone enquiring.

On a more general note about references, it is fine to give a 'bad' reference as long as it is based purely on substantiated facts and does not raise any issues the employee is not aware of themselves. You have a duty as an employer not to give a misleading overall impression of a candidate in a reference, and a misleading good impression is just as inappropriate as a misleading bad impression? For this reason many employers choose to only give basic references with employment dates and other basic information. Some employers choose to do this for individuals for whom they would otherwise give a bad reference.

It's a bit more complicated in childcare as a reference is obviously absolutely crucial in terms of allowing a childcarer to get work - with a reference that isn't positive enough or one which is missing, they will find it extremely difficult to get any job in childcare. So withholding a reference altogether or giving just a neutral one is far more significant than doing the same for, say, an office worker. Similarly the importance of not giving a falsely positive misleading overall impression is even more important when the individual will be working with children. Unfortunately, as the employment was so short, this problem can be easily circumvented by the nanny.

if contacted by the agency you used or any potential employer for a reference, you have a duty to ensure they have an accurate impression of this nanny. But I think providing that information in a written form for her to take away will be pointless just because she will bin it immediately. As long as you point out to her why you are not giving her a written reference and reiterate that you are happy to do so on request, she can have no complaint about you withholding it.

I am really shocked and saddened to hear of this - hope your DC are all ok and that you find someone lovely to look after them well soon.

I agree with flowery... a written reference in this case isn't worth doing. Make your ex-nanny aware that you will provide a verbal reference upon request, though such a reference would be to the effect that they worked between x date and x date and were dismissed for gross misconduct.

sounds to me that she lost control and isnt a suitable person to look after young children - all children play up at times

if a child doesnt want to eat, then i certainly dont force feed, they just go hungary till next meal

i would def stay in sat, maybe hide your car, so that she thinks you are out, and let her let herself into your house to collect her reference letter of notice and then walk into the same room

I took my baby out of a nursery for the same reason 17 years ago. I walked into his nursery early and found he was being force fed. I had a very well paid job as a Director's Secretary. I picked him up out of the high chair and fled. I gave notice and became a childminder. Over the years I have made sure the children I mind are looked after as I would expect mine to be cared for. I would SACK AND REPORT HER. Abuse is abuse and what she did with your is unacceptable then and nowdays.

OMG.
You are SO not over reacting. Locking a child in a room is totally unacceptable (just as locking an adult up in a room would be). As is force feeding your younger child.

You must be feeling awful. Big hugs to you and your family.

Her letter to you is sickening. To think that any explanation could ever be acceptable!

It is a shame that the police/ofsted couldn't do anything, but you were totally right to call them. Call all the agencies and discuss the matter, and give them her name. CALL SOCIAL SERVICES. This is the kind of thing that they would want to investigate. The more you can spread the word about this "nanny" the better.

I want to reiterate what Tiramissu said about giving your DS lots of fun times and not "going on" too much about it. Try to make any phone calls/have discussions with friends about it when he is not there or when he is asleep.

Squiffy's idea about the formal letter of dismissal is brilliant, you should definitely do that. This is a serious matter and she should be made aware of that.

I think you should change the locks immediately, and I think you and your husband should both be there when she comes round.

Get this person out of your lives and your children's lives. PLEASE get future nannies from agencies. The agencies might charge through the nose for doing very little, and the nannies might not always be up to scratch, but (heaven forbid) if anything like this ever happens again you will have someone to report it to. Nannies who have been with an agency for a long time will have reliable references and the agency will be well aware of any difficulties they might have had with previous employers.

Plan something really special for Sunday with the whole family so that you can all just forget about it and have fun together. Please let us all know how it all pans out.

Much love x

A couple more things:

re. not talking about in too much in front of DS, if he does mention it again make sure he knows that the reason you are so cross is that nanny has done a really naughty thing - that she shouldn't have locked him in his room. (presumably you already have but just thought I'd mention it.)

re. police - if the issue is "proof" now that she has written you that letter (or was it e-mail?) either way that is surely proof as she admits locking DS in his room. Maybe you could take this to Police.

Again - ring social services. Take her letter to them too.

If all this comes to nothing you could think about contacting local news/tv news programs. I'd recommend doing this only when you've tried official routes though. Police etc may be less sympathetic if you have already gone to the press.

Once again, much love. x

If a parent did this wouldn't someone be investigating? So why is no one seeming to be bothered when it is a paid child carer?

"re. police - if the issue is "proof" now that she has written you that letter (or was it e-mail?) either way that is surely proof as she admits locking DS in his room. Maybe you could take this to Police"

good point,print off and show to agencies/police as evidence/proof

was she crbed when you hired her, or is she registered?