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Paid childcare

Discuss everything related to paid childcare here, including childminders, nannies, nurseries and au pairs.

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Original poster

could my nanny be lying to us?

54 replies

Mar826 · 05/01/2009 14:11

Hi. I am in a bizarre dilemma. We have had what looked like a wonderful nanny for the past 2 years. The reason why the situation went sour is for Christmas, we originally booked a family ski trip in Italy. Everything was booked. On the day of our trip, our nanny fell ill, apparently due to food poisoning and remained home. A few days later, I spoke with her to see if she could come on a later flight and she named another medical condition explaining why she couldn't travel so I let her have the rest of the week off.

When we returned, I asked to see her passport so we could check if she did in fact have a valid visa for travel. Mysteriously, she didn't have her passport and had sent it away to her 'solicitor' the day we returned.

When we asked for the number of her solicitor so we could ask him to faax us the relvant pages of her passport, she didn't have the address or number and then told us she sent it instead to a friend that knew where the solictor's office was.

A week later, her friend still didn't receive her passport and her soliticor was on holiday the whole week so we don't know why it was so urgent for her to send. the only number she provided of solicitor was a mobile number and no one picks up.

it all seems very dodgy and she has a good track record with us, but now we don't know whether we were right to trust her. We are giving her one more week to get her papers in order and if she doesn't come through, we'll have to fire her. A nightmare, but any thoughts on what to do?

OP posts:

Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

Set a reminder

BlameItOnTheBogey · 05/01/2009 14:58

Schengen visa is a visa which covers travel to a number of European countries who have 'opted in' to the system. The UK hasn't opted in so a Schengen visa is not valid for entry into the UK. This is why she would need two different visas.

revjustaboutwipestheslateclean · 05/01/2009 14:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LiffeyAnnaLivia · 05/01/2009 14:59

Also, what seems like a small lie to people you hardly know is a 'deception' when it later turns out that you have a good relationship with your employers.

Not defending what she's done, but just saying it doesn't mean she thinks badly of you or is taking advantage of you. (I don't think)

BlameItOnTheBogey · 05/01/2009 14:59

x posted with bling who explained it much better...

nannynick · 05/01/2009 15:00

Schengan Visa Explained

Skim reading... it looks to me as though it is for Travel only, not for work purposes. Some visas are single entry, others permit multiple entry. Italy may be a special case, can't quite work it out... something about applying to Embassy for Italy Tourist Visa.

nannynick · 05/01/2009 15:04

I think that perhaps she is scared that if she leaves the UK, she won't be permitted back in again. Thus her reluctance to go out of the UK with you.

MrsHappy · 05/01/2009 15:05

I agree with FBB.

I would sit down with her and say that you are required to check that she has the right to work in the UK and for that purpose you would like to see and take a copy of her passport for your records.

If she appears shifty I would ask her very calmly whether she is having immigration problems and suggest that you might be able to help her with them if she tells you about them. Stress that it is very important to you that everything is legal and above board and that you want to help because you value her as an employee.

She might just open up if you ask her directly whether there is a problem.

Original poster

Mar826 · 05/01/2009 15:11

Hi. I think you're right. I think it would be too abrupt to start discussing 'misconduct' and threaten to fire her. In my moments of frustration, I think about it and then I think it's so unfair as we have been really fair and open with her this whole time. I just don't want to feel as if we have been taken advantage of because we've been decent to her.

If we have been employing her illegally though, then we have to fix it or else then it could have implications for us. And then we need to find someone who is legal (and good).

OP posts:

flowerybeanbag · 05/01/2009 15:14

I don't think talking about misconduct and threatening to fire her is abrupt. I just think it's not necessary or important.

What is important is to establish as soon as possible whether both you and she have been breaking the law or not. It sounds as though you have. I think worrying about being fair to her at the moment is the least of your concerns.

You can phrase it nicely if you feel it's appropriate given the relationship you have with her, fine, but you need confirmation immediately that she is entitled to work here otherwise her employment must end immediately. Simple as that really. You are leaving yourself very vulnerable if you don't do that.

Original poster

Mar826 · 05/01/2009 15:40

We will have a sit down with her to discuss the details tonight. Need to get to the bottom of it as we just want to be clear what the situation is. It would be easier though if we had her passport so we could see what her actual documentation/visas are!

OP posts:

flowerybeanbag · 05/01/2009 15:45

Not really a case of it being easier if you could see her visa, more that if she is unable to show it to you, she cannot continue to work. I would urge you to be very firm and clear on this for your own protection.

annh · 05/01/2009 16:02

I'm sure Flowery will confirm because my knowledge of the implications of this are gained only from overhearing HR fretting about this issue at work but at my company we employed lots of casual people from non-EU countries and our big issue with seeing evidence of the right to work in the UK related to the fact that as an employer we could be fined thousands for employing people illegally. Presumably, the same situation relates to the OP.

annh · 05/01/2009 16:03

It also beggars belief that she is involved in some transaction with a solicitor without apparently having anything except a mobile number for him/her!

nannynick · 05/01/2009 16:29

Civil Penalties for Employers - looks like it is up to £10,000 per illegal employee.
HomeOffice says: "The penalty system operates on a sliding scale of amounts, based on the type of eligibility checks employers have made on their workers, the number of occasions on which a warning has been issued or civil penalty imposed, and the extent to which the employer has co-operated with us."
So this would be a first time offence and the employer will be reporting the illegal worker plus fully co-operating. Penalties Table - looks as if the OP could get away with no fine... if some employment checks had been made initially. If no checks had been made, then min fine is £2,500.
Though in this case, the worker is in the country legally (in their hospital job)... so I would hope that immigration take that into account. Ultimately it looks as though it could be anything from nothing to £10,000.

flowerybeanbag · 05/01/2009 17:36

Thousands indeed.

However cooperative the OP might now be with the immigration people, it seems likely that, had the required employment checks been done at the time, the visa provided to be checked would have been one for specific employment as a nurse, and therefore not valid for this employment.

If that's the case, from a Home Office person's point of view, either mar826 checked and then decided to employ someone illegally, or didn't check at all.

nannynick · 05/01/2009 17:49

Her nursing visa is still valid... so could a soluition be to dismiss her and she returns to the nursing job full-time?

flowerybeanbag · 05/01/2009 17:59

Um. I guess so. And just leave it at that? I don't know what (if any checks) are done that might mean this is found out later, or whether once the employment has ended it's not going to come on to anyone's radar after that. My knowledge is very hazy.

If there are no official checks done from now, I guess then the only problem might be someone informing on either the OP or the woman in question, or if it somehow comes up in terms of other records, tax for example, whether HMRC and immigration link up in any way. I'm musing randomly at the moment, no idea really!

One of the visas ran out or runs out this month, was that the Schengen one or the work one, can't remember?

Blondeshavemorefun · 05/01/2009 17:59

sounds as if she is hiding something, and as others have said that it is prob as her passport has run out and she cant get another for whatever reason

i think you have a right to be annoyed if she has lied about it, as you have spent money on flights (never cheap at xmas) and you HAVE to have a good relationship with your nanny/mb, and her lying about ( the excuse about friend and lawyer def sound suss imo) isnt good

nannynick · 05/01/2009 18:17

flowerybeanbag - I have no idea either. It's a tricky situation. If the OP reports the situation then they face a large fine. If they don't report the situation, they may not get caught. Hmm, tricky.

flowerybeanbag · 05/01/2009 18:21

In terms of best course for the OP, I would suggest giving the employee a very short deadline by which proof of right to work in UK must be produced, and if said evidence is not forthcoming, ending the employment immediately, then leaving it at that.

MrsSchadenfreude · 05/01/2009 18:27

She also wouldn't be able to apply for British nationality unless she had indefinite leave to remain in the UK, and if she's still on a visa with conditions, then it's unlikely that she has this.

Her name's not Imelda/Emmie, is it??

annh · 05/01/2009 18:32

Oh dear Lord, it's surely not the cold fish finger woman is it?

lou031205 · 05/01/2009 18:34

"A person who has a work permit is able to undertake work, provided:

it is outside of their normal working hours;
it is no more than 20 hours a week;
it is in the same profession and at the same professional level for which the holder's work permit was issued;
they are not employed by a recruitment agency, employment agency or similar business to provide personnel to a client (does not apply to Sports and Entertainments work permit holders); and
for the Sectors Based Scheme (SBS) arrangements only, is for a job within the same industrial sector as the employment for which the SBS permit was originally issued. " www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/workingintheuk/tier2/work-permit-holders/supplementaryemployment/

From the look of this info, there is no way that your employee could be working for you legally whilst holding a permit to work in the UK as a nurse. Sorry

I think you really need to move swiftly on this one.

MrsSchadenfreude · 05/01/2009 18:37

AnnH - fancy you remembering that!

annh · 05/01/2009 18:39

I'm a bit worried that I do remember that story actually Mrs S! Somehow, of all the disaster nanny scenarios we have had on here over the years that one has always stuck in my mind!

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