Help me decide what sort of childcare to go for in September .... longish post

[VirginBoffinMum]

I'm having dc4 in April, and by then my other kids will be dd 21 (i.e. not needing childcare any more and away at uni), ds 11 and ds 8. I work full time about 1 hour 20 minutes away from where I live. I try to work from home every Friday, so I am out the house from 8-6.30 or so from Monday to Thursday. I've also got a minor disability that affects my mobility at the moment so I get quite tired, plus obviously I'll have a five month old probably waking me up in the night as well. DH works even longer hours than me, and part-time working won't be an option for either of us for a while.

Currently I have an au pair to do the school run and various bits and pieces to help me. However I am trying to decide what to do about childcare come September when I go back to work after maternity leave, and if anyone has advice or help I would be very interested to hear it.

There is a really good nursery at work but it costs £180 a week (probably less a bit more because you can do salary sacrifice), plus I wonder if the drive would be too much for the baby. It would be nice to have the baby near me though. I would probably still need an au pair on top of this for the older boys (£80 a week plus board and associated au pair management hassle).

Another option would be a nanny for all three, but I reckon this would probably cost me about £350 a week gross. Realistically this is a little bit beyond our means, but may keep me more sane. However I am a bit worried because I have heard a nanny wouldn't give domestic help and we would need someone to be doing washing and ironing and a few errands as well (I have a cleaner once a week for the main cleaning jobs). I am also a bit worried about whether a nanny would be hard to manage and fussy. I have been wondering about trying to get a Norland trainee to avoid this, but I am not sure if this means they will be any better. That would be £158 gross a week plus an one-off agency fee of £2000.

We don't have any childminders in our area and the local after school club closes at 6 and isn't brilliant, plus they usually ration it so you only end up with 2 or 3 days a week, but only find out which days at the last minute, i.e. days before term starts, which is why we stopped trying to use it.

As I say, any thoughts or advice on all this would be very helpful indeed.

VirginBoffinMum - most of them haven't checked my references very thoroughly tbh, and they just seem to put me forward for jobs a bit at random. I've been sent details of live-in jobs, jobs with only school age children, nanny-housekeeper roles that I've told them many times I'm just not interested in. They don't seem to put much effort into matching nanny and family in my experience. I actually went to an interview once before I realised the family needed a driver (I don't drive). They also inflate wages, which while obviously I'm glad that they're trying to get me a good wage, I don't want to outprice myself.

All in all, agencies seem like an extra layer of hassle - I much prefer dealing directly with the family myself.

Also, a lot of the jobs coming through agencies I've also seen advertised by the parent on gumtree, netmums etc - I could answer the ad directly, or go through the agency and cost the employers a big fee! I don't think agencies do anything you can't do yourself.

The main reason so many nannies use agencies as you have to be attached to an organisation to get a CRB check.

Interesting stuff, Tankie.

I did wonder about agencies inflating salaries, because I had a go at finding a nanny this way once a long time ago, when ds1 was small, and they were asking more for a recently qualified 18-year-old than a qualified teacher would earn at the time, plus saying things like "other families throw in a car and gym membership" which I thought was patently daft for someone in their teens. The car would probably end up wrapped around a lamp post for a start. I didn't even have a car myself at the time, anyway.

Plus they did send unsuitable people - one girl we interviewed when asked 'What would you feed a one-year-old for lunch?' had absolutely no clue, and another one, when asked how she would entertain the kids, seemed to think taking them to a different theme park every day of the holidays with her nephews and nieces at our expense was the answer. Other agencies asked us for registration fees and then candidates would simply not turn up for interview.

This all thoroughly put me off nannies and agencies for a while, so I sent the boys to nursery, but I was working very close nearby, so this was OK for a bit. However I think from what you are all saying that the voice of reason has now kicked in, and there are a lot of nice nannies out there who are worth speaking to, if you know where to find them. I'm a lot closer to this hallowed state now after all your advice, and as a result my confidence is starting to creep back.

I've never been offered gym membership or a car (not that I want either). I was given a bicycle once though!

You sounds like my kind of gal, Tankie.

virgin - you have had some bad UNPROFESSIONAL nannies if they didnt show for an interview

agree most nannies use agencies as to stop us getting mucked about but also garee there are some crap ones about

It was Nice Nannies Now, actually.

I have come across an awful lot of unprofessional nannies, this is what made me nervous actually. I could never work out how other people got proper ones, and assumed they must be loaded and paying megabucks.

there are always going to be bad nannies about

but also fab (modest) ones like me

guess you go on refernces, and how you feel/gel with them

i think nannies should have quals, but also know of some qualified nannies who are crap

just bugs me that tech ANYONE can call theirselves a nanny

where i went to college for 2 years and trained/studied hard

Bit of a rant from me now then too! It would change my life if I had a fab nanny. All the childcare disasters I have with the APs over the years and one four month stint with a temperamental and moody nanny housekeeper have knocked my confidence terribly.

We get no help from our extended families and really need the backup, and it's so disappointing when you do without things to pay for decent childcare only to find people taking advantage. I am trying to be optimistic this time.

thing is you cant compare an AP with an exp sole charge, qual nanny

they are completly different,a nanny should just on with things, ap's need guidence

sure you will find a fab nanny

Sorry for posting without having read thread in full..so may have already been raised.

I would put salary in your advert on a weekly gross basis... nannies practically always think of salaries as a weekly sum making it clear what you are offering will avoid any time wasters applying..

I would also think carfeully on your wording for an ofsted registered nanny...there aren't many nannies who are ofsted registered..imho only the experienced ones who would possibly be looking for a slightly better paid...less housework involved job. Do you 'need' someone already ofsted registered or could you put someone through the ofsted registration?? Will cost you about £100 in fees and they will need to do first aid, crb and an introduction course. Should only take max of 6 months...Doing this will DRAMATICALLY increase the number of applicants you get.

Make clear your expectations for Fridays...IE you will need to be availabe to help mum from 8am-9am on fridays and may be asked to cover other hours if required (are you paying extra for these hours?) Always when recruiting ask for more than you usually want...then nanny will be happy when she gets friday off or only babysits for 1 night a week...rather than springing extra hours on her later which she will be miffed about.

Good luck

Agree about putting salary in the advert and also with making it clear about Fridays. You may want to say that Fridays hours are 8am-Midday for example. Then if you find you only need the help 8am-9am at times, then you can let nanny go home early - but still pay them till Midday. You aren't paying them hourly, you pay an annual salary (suggest putting annual salary and weekly equivalent in advert). You may also want to define when the babysitting is to be done... for example, that it will only be an evening Mon-Thurs, so nanny is able to go away for the weekend (Friday Midday to Sunday evening) quite easily.
If nanny is around at the weekend and you decide you want to go out on a Saturday night, then of course you can ask the nanny if they will baby then, and pay that as an addition.

Great tips again - does this sounds better?
Enough information or too much now?

Live-in sole charge job working with 3 boys (11 years, 8 years, 5 months). Attractive large village 20 minutes by bike/car from xx city centre with all amenities and nightlife. Also near mainline train station (London 1 hr 20 minutes) and main bus routes.

6 weeks paid holiday a year, large double bedroom with sitting area, TV etc, and share children's bathroom. £14,560 p.a./£280 gross pw/£228 net pw. One evening's babysitting a week, occasionally two. Ideally nanny should be Ofsted registered or very close to being so, as we would like to pay with childcare vouchers.

Routine:

7.30 Help get kids up, dressed, ready for school.
7.45 Wave eldest off to secondary school with all necessary equipment (he will be getting himself there).
8.30 Take middle son to school on foot (1 mile away) with baby in pram.
9.15 Back at home. Look after baby. Do children's bedrooms, playroom, children's washing and ironing as required, while baby is having naps. Socialise with other nannies, go to Tumbletots, park, swimming, etc.
3.00 Go back to school to collect middle son.
4.00 Give middle son milk and biscuits, help him with homework and music practice for about 10 minutes or so.
4.45 Eldest son comes back home from secondary school by himself. Give him milk and biscuits, make sure he spends 1 hour doing his homework.
6.00 Cook dinner, something simple like pasta or quiche (kids have hot dinners at school but are still hungry)
6.30 Family dinner all together. Clear up afterwards, start to get everyone ready for bed. Get everything ready for next day and lined up by front door, eg PE kits, uniform and so on.
7.30 Clock off

Friday afternoons off.

Should just say that salary works out at £15000 pa with employer's extra NI costs and so on.

We get back quite late and tired Mon-Thurs, both having gruelling commutes, so don't go out during the week as a rule, but tend to go out for about 3 hours every other Friday, so I have made that a bit vague.

A non-Ofsted registered nanny would cost us about £2000 a year more, so that's pretty important! There's not masses of housework in this job, just the kids' rooms and laundry, so hopefully someone good will bite.

ad sounds good, maybe put that you are happy to pay costs towards being registered

and weekends are free

20mins by bike is different from 20mins by car ( sorry dont mean to be picky)

No, it really is 20 minutes on average by bike or car, because cars have to go the long way round!! And there's traffic, whereas bikes have special routes. Sometimes it's 20 mins bike/40 mins car!! To go 4 miles!!

Paying Ofsted costs is a taxable perk apparently so nanny would have to pay extra £30 tax via the next year's tax code if we did this.

I will stress that weekends will be free, although how do we deal with babysitting at weekends if we say this? There won't be money in the kitty to pay nanny extra for babysitting. One of their nights at the weekend would always be free, however. Suggestions?

maybe put town is 4 miles away

do you mean one of the 2 bs would have to be a weekend

"Paying Ofsted costs is a taxable perk apparently so nanny would have to pay extra £30 tax via the next year's tax code if we did this."

never heard of this - nick can you shed any light?

not sure it is a perk for the nanny, nannies DONT benifit from being registered at all, thats why i think the employers should pay all costs

Weekend babysitting - not particularly popular with young Nannies, especially if she is free from Friday midday as would mean if she goes away/back home she would have to return just for a Sat night babsit so would feel as if it was not a free weekend. I don't think many would moan at ! Saturday babysit per month.

Am also suprised at the taxable perk for Ofsted registration as the Nanny gets NO monetary benefit from it at all - just the employer benefitting from paying less tax on their own income.

Should say 1 babysit per month - not !

Hmm, interesting point about Ofsted. As an employer to be (thanks to you guys!) I actually think the nanny does benefit because it makes him/her immediately a lot more employable and professional looking. It's like my Fellowship of the Higher Education Academy - I had to pay for that myself and get absolutely nothing back, but it means I get taken more seriously in a competitive market. This is normal in most professions now, I think.

I saw the bit about it being a taxable perk on Nannytax:

www.nannytax.co.uk/parents/OCR_faq.html

Re: babysitting, I would like one night to be at the weekend because DH gets home 9 many nights in the week. What is the best way of putting this so I get it included without putting the nanny off totally? (Sometimes we only go out for an hour or two to the pub though, which leaves most of the evening free if the nanny does want to go out later on). Or perhaps you think this would really be too much??

x posts - Perhaps I should say 1 weekend night a month??

Yes, I suppose it does make you more attractive/employable but it's a cost that is payable yearly. I believe in continuity of care for children and plan on being in my current job (all being well) until the youngest is at school so it could cost me £300 for which I will get no benefit. It could be written into a contract that if a nanny left part way through the year then it is paid back pro rata.

The babysitting is a bit awkward isn't it. As a suggestion could you do 1 weekend night a month and meet your dh from work on a week night the other weeks (leaving Nanny to put kids to bed)

but not all employers can use the vouchers ,if their company doesnt support it, so tech it wouldnt benifit me in this job

and i wouldnt get registerd on the off chance that the new family MIGHT need/be able to use the vouchers

cant beleive the nanny gets taxed on it!!

This is very useful, nbee, because it's helping me see the nanny eye view and test out ideas and negotiation points very well. Huge thanks xx

re: Meeting DH at work - he works 3.5 hours away from my workplace!! So perhaps not!!

I think the Ofsted registration cost might be a good thing to discuss at interview, and given as an extra negotiating point if someone looks tempting. I hadn't realised it was yearly (btw I have to pay CRB myself as well at work but only once every 3 years). But it's effectively giving the nanny an extra week's pay. I wonder whether it might actually be tax-deductible for him/her if administered in another way?? Then it wouldn't cost either of us anything. I might ask Nannytax this actually.