Problem with Child Ratios for 4 and 5 years olds, its all changing under EYFS

[ayla99]

P.51 B: Childminders. 2nd bullet point

"where four- and
five-year-old children only attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school
day, they may be classed as children over the age of five for the purposes of the adult:child ratio"

Ofsted have confirmed today to me and others by email that this means that 4 AND 5 year olds can only be counted as an over five on the days they attend a normal school day. During school holidays, training days, snow days/staff strikes or any other day the child does not attend a normal school day they revert to a younger child again for the purposes of child ratios. And this will continue throughout the school year until 31 August.

Absolutely ridiculous IMO, Ofsted have said its still at consulation stage and subject to change. So please do contact Ofsted and make your views known.

www.ofsted.gov.uk/portal/site/Internet/menuitem.ecb0bb2233bb2aee628a0d8308c08a0c/?vgnextoid=1cfc8587 fd24a010VgnVCM1000008192a8c0RCRD

This will make it really difficult for childminders to offer care for reception class children. We can't afford to hold open both an under fives and older fives place with just one fee. And parents can't be expected to pay for 2 places for one child. So we'll all need variations to cover each holiday period!

The statutory framework as revised 19 May 08 can be downloaded from here:
(pdf link in middle column just above picture)

www.standards.dcsf.gov.uk/eyfs/site/requirements/index.htm

FFS, that's BONKERS!!!

Off to look now, thanks for highlighting that!!!

That is ridiculous. That means I will need a variation during all the holidays from September then as my dd will be going to school full time, but I am due to give birth at christmas so will be over my ratios just with the existing children I mind!

Each time I read another thing about EYFS it gets more complicated and awkward.

Is anyone going to be able to childmind normally when it all comes in? I have not yet heard a positive comment about the thing.

We wre told at a meeting on Monday that they would be counted as 5 during the holidays! It was Surestart that told us, it was a question asked at the meeting.

I'm sure if you ask another person at Ofsted they would give you a different answer anyway! It seems to work that way!!

Appendix 2 point 13

a maximum of six children under the age of eight;

■■ of these six children, a maximum of three may be young children4, however where four- and
five-year-old children only attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school
day, they may be classed as children over the age of five for the purposes of the adult:child ratio;

■■ normally, no more than one child may be under the age of one, however a childminder may be
registered to care for two children under the age of one where they are able to demonstrate that
they can meet and reconcile the individual needs of all the children being cared for.
14 Exceptions to these ratios can be made for siblings and to provide continuity of care in certain
circumstances approved by Ofsted, provided that the total number of children under the age of
eight being cared for does not exceed six.
15 If a childminder either employs an assistant or works with another childminder, the above
numbers apply to each of these individuals in addition to the childminder

Def says in EYFS that a child looked after before and after school is classes as 5

Thats what I thought SB, it usually works that way especially if you phone them! Bbut I'm not the only one who got an email today, saying the same thing.

As the EYFS revised edition came out on Monday I expected to see this paragraph amended. Of course it wasn't. Then I heard that someone from Ofsted confessed it all at a recent NCMA conference. So thats what prompted my query to Ofsted.

Please do read the paragraph on p.51 carefully. Its quite clear that ONLY where children attend a normal school day can they count as an older child. If its being misinterpreted by people at Ofsted it needs to be rewritten. If its been written correctly its ridiculous and warrants petitions and campaigns IMO

Please do write/email Ofsted yourselves - maybe if enough people pester them they'll realise the extent of the problem and do something about it. Can you imagine how much work they'd have to do if we all have to request a variation every holiday?

Thats exactly the problem Shoshe - it clearly says ONLY where a child attends... before and/or after a normal school day. Which they won't be in school holidays. So
Ofsted say it means it applies in term-time but not in school holidays.

At the moment, once they can be counted as an over-five they continue to be an over-five for ever after. Thats not the case with EYFS according to Ofsted.

ive just emailed them to ask if this si correct detailing that LOTS of cm's will have major probs with exisitng children if this is the case!

Our Sure start lady in charge was adamant that it meant in the holidays as well. I will have to get it in writing from here than contact ofsted.

If they stick to just term time, will they issue a variation for the whole year till end of reception (I have to get a variation from Sept to Jan anyaway as here they only go part time till Jan, so count as 4 till then anyway).

If they do issue variations till end of Reception, what is the point of the rule!

Thing is it's not Ofsted that make these rules it the DCSF (ie the government) - Ofsted are only carrying them out! So maybe we should be pestering the DCSF too?
[email protected]

Maybe this is the governments way of getting children in to the extended schools?

I'm waiting for the NCMA to get back to me to confirm that they will be challenging it... they seem to have been caught off guard too!

Good point Lucy - I've emailed them, thanks. Also there's a feedback link that goes to dcsf too (right at the bottom of the page)

www.teachernet.gov.uk/teachingandlearning/EYFS

Just got emal back to say its being looked at and they will contact me when a final descision is reached as they now realise what probs this could cause

In Who Minds - it says it is all sorted & that under 5's will count as over even in the holidays

Confusing then as Shoshe had her reply - she's posted about this in AIBU section (link in staffroom)

Well 'who Minds' arrived this am & it's on p5

i read who minds too said its sorted

Nice to know isn't it that NCMA are doing their bit for us

Havn't got mine yet, although spoke to NCMA here at a group meeting who didnt seem to know anything about it till I brought it up!

And the emails from Ofsted have been in the last week, I think we need something in writting from Ofsted to clarify this.

I really don't think Oftsed knows whats its doing, they change things to suit themselves and make trying to sort contracts out even harder than they should be.

I always thought when a 4 yr old starts full time education they are classed as being 5, surely they don't change to being 4 in school holidays inbetween terms?

I think OFSted inspectors should have had to have been childminders before they can be inspectors so they can see how difficult our job is and see things from our point of view because things would be very different if they had been in our position.

I haven't seen the Who Minds article. Do hope its right and that the EYFS paragraph will be amended to make it very clear.

Was the article written after Liz Elsom from Ofsted spoke at the NCMA seminar last week?

No changes on NCMA or Teachernet yet

www.bromleycma.org.uk/news/news
Should have known Bromley CMA would have the answers.

Just to make sure, if anyone hasn't expressed their views yet, you can do so at

www.teachernet.gov.uk/teachingandlearning/EYFS/feedback/index.cfm?form=105

What has happened is that the wording on Page 51 of the Statutory Framework for the EYFS we all have already states that "Each childminder may care for: a maximum of six children under the age of eight; of these six children, a maximum of three may be young children, however where four- and five-year-old children ONLY attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school day, they may be classed as children over the age of five for the purposes of the adult:child ratio;

The NCMA were expecting the revised EYFS (released last Monday) to have this wording changed to include holidays too... but it wasn't!!

Ofsted have been instructed to inform all childminders by letter in July. Those that have enquired by phone/email are being told that rising 5's (up until they start Year 1) are counted as under 5's in our numbers during the school holidays, unless they can get a variation.