15 hour funding v 30 hours

[RGSD]

My youngest just started nursery & gets the new 15 hours funding for 9 mo. My 3 year old goes to the same nursery and gets 30 hours funding now. They both go full time term-time only. I just got the bills and the difference between them is £31! How can 30 hours only be worth £31 a month?!!!! They waffled at me about funding hours and said they aren’t allowed to disclose the funding allocated but seriously: does this seem right??? Not to mention the £11 a day each for their food… I mean £11 for a 10 month old?!!

That doesn't seem right. They should be able to breakdown the charges on the invoice for you. But saying that our nursery have just changed their admin system and the new invoices are quite vague now without a breakdown. Still being invoiced what I expected though.

Do you know their hourly charge? Is the 9 months invoice what you expected but the 3yo is a lot more?

I can see how it happens.
Its a 1.5 day difference in the childcare, but presumably meals and incidentals like nappies are a separate charge.

What is the daily rate?

Sorry thought that was £31 a week not a month!!

Big questions need asking!

You need to firmly & politely ask for a breakdown.
Could it be something like you're paying extra for nappies for the younger one but not the older?
Also, they do need to tell you how the funding is "allocated"

Local authority funding rates should be available online somewhere for your area.

9 month old funding can be £11ish per hour, whereas 3yr funding can be around £4. However staff to child ratio is different, younger children have more staff thus the higher rate.

What you pay for is the unfunded hours. So that can include lunchtime, early morning and late afternoon. Funding is done in sessions, and is term time only unless the nursery has agreement with local authority to split it across the year.

I thought the 15 hours for 9 months olds doesn't start till September...? Is this bill for August or September?

You may find the rates each LA receives from central government online but that's not necessarily what the nursery will receive from their LA.
Local Authorities can keep some funding for admin costs and SEN for example.

Yes, what LA gets and what they pass on to the provider are not the same thing.

What parents pay should not be affected by what LA gives to provider. So fees should be as a result of things like additional hours, food, nappies etc.

This was the response I got from the nursery:
“Breakdown for 3YO
£64.00 x 5 = £320 (per week)
42 weeks = £13440
Divided by 10 months (Sept-June) = £1344
Minus
30 hrs funding for 3 year olds
Funding is for 38 weeks per year but we spread this out over the 10 months (12 months if attending for 51 weeks) We are not authorised to disclose the funding rate.
Total to pay monthly = £771.72. This figure includes meals and resources.
Breakdown for 9m-23m
£64.00 x 5 = £320 (per week)
42 weeks = £13440
Divided by 10 months (Sept-June) = £1344
Minus
15 hrs funding for 9m-23m olds
Funding is for 38 weeks per year but we spread this out over the 10 months (12 months if attending for 51 weeks) We are not authorised to disclose the funding rate.
Total to pay monthly = £803.07. This figure includes meals and resources.
As you can see, the amount of funding for 15 hours at the 9month old rate doesn’t differ too much from 30 hours at the 3 year rate. We are not authorised to disclose the funding rate. However to answer your question regarding the difference between 3YO and 9m-23m funding, the funding rate per hour for 9m-23m is much higher. I imagine the idea behind this is because younger babies need more resources.
”

Yes, meals are listed as an extra for both of them… at £11 each per day! 😮

For September; we get the bill in advance

I asked our nursery this last week. The 30 hours for over 3's of working parents is the old 'universal' scheme that's always been in place. My sons had it 7 years ago. They get somewhere around £5 per hour for this from the government.

The new scheme of 30 hours for over 9 months is funded at a higher rate. This includes the 15 hours for 2 year olds which we currently get. The term after they turn 3 they switch onto the old scheme meaning that although they get more hours the nursery receives less money hence the higher bills.

Nursery manager said it's not advertised as such and is really angry that people have been enticed back to work with this promise of 'free' / cheaper bills and are going to end up with a shock when the children hit 3. The government have been sneaky imo.

Sorry - I mean the 15 hours from 9 mo this coming September, not 30

The nursery seem to be deducting the LA’s funding money directing from your bill rather than the nursery’s hourly rate.
This is totally wrong. That not how it should work.
Complain to your Local Authority and get them to sort it out.

They're deducting the funding from the bill, which isn't how it works, they should deduct the hours.

One year old funding in Cambridgeshire is £7.50 OP if that helps and my older one (nearly 4) is £5.40. £75 a day including food but not nappies, wipes etc so seems comparable in terms of daily cost

EY alliance website have the EY funding rates for each area.

Do you think the charges are wrong as a result then?

I think how the nursery are applying the funding is wrong and it shows they have a deep misunderstanding of how they should be charging parents that is not allowed in the statutory guidance.

As others have said they should be deducting the number of funded hours from your bill not the amount they receive from the LA.
The cost of meals is also very high.
You can contact your LA and request they look into this for you.

La online funding rate is what the LA receive from the government not what is passed to the provider. The LA takes an admin fee then applies a formula so settings get varying amounts according to if they are schools or privately run ( extra for schools pensions) if they have SEND children etc.

I would talk to your LA and ask them to look at the costings you've been given as they should show total hours per week less funding hours at zero equals contracted unfunded hours at fee plus voluntary charge for consumables....

The maths makes the funding rate for the 3 year old £5ph and for the 9 months old £9.50. So yes the fact it's half the amount of hours but nearly double the rate makes sense.

I thought £5ph funding for 3 year olds was standard, it seems to be consistent (if shit) in Wales.

It’s irrelevant what rate the LA pay. 30 and 15 hours should be deducted, not the funded amount. They are certainly charging incorrectly. Also £11 for lunch is insane.
Daily nursery rates varies between areas, but for reference….. Our days are 9 hours. Therefore, 45 hours in the week. They deduct 30 hours from the total which is 15 hours to pay. The daily rate is £63, therefore hourly rate is £63/9 hours in the day = £7 an hour. £7*15 hours= £105 a week to pay. No extra cost for lunch. £420ish a month

Under the way yours seems to be calculating, mine would be £635 days in week= £315. £315 minus funding (30£4=£120)= £195 to pay. £780ish a month, plus £11 a day for food (220ish)!

This is incorrect. They technically can charge for the food (although £11 is wild)

So if a nursery charges £7ph (for example) and the funded rate is £5ph (for example) who pays the £2ph shortfall? A lot of nursery's are barely covering costs as it is, I don't know how people think they can just suck up these kind of losses.

Don't get me wrong, it's crap and the cost should be funded properly but that's a government issue not a nursery issue.

This. Mine deducts the hours I have three funded sessions and a paid for session from September . Just had the invoice and it's very clear.