Do we pay a nanny who must self-isolate when she returns from holiday? What does the law say?

[ParentOfOne]

Our nanny went on holiday to a country which was in the safe corridor list (or whatever it's called) when she left, but now has been removed, so she must now self-isolate for 2 weeks when she comes back. Which of course means we have to arrange childcare for 2 weeks and we have no idea how, but that's a separate story.

The question is: do English (we are in England) employment law or government regulations dictate if she is entitled to her salary?

For the record, we paid her full salary when she was in furlough, but by going on holiday abroad I think she was reckless, she knew this might have happened, so I don't see why I should be paying for a risk she was aware of but decided to ignore.

Thanks!

You don't have to pay her and aren't under any moral obligation either.

She took a risk going on holiday. No reason your family should suffer for it.

Shocking about the abuse of the furlough scheme. I think there has been a lot of it, unfortunately.

Doesn't matter you choose to work in a foreign country you take the consequences. I would never work or emigrate abroad for that reason

Oh look, an early winner of today's "smuggery of the day" award.

My NHS Trust will not pay someone if they go abroad knowing that they must quarantine on return, but will pay if the rules change while the employee is already abroad. That seems pretty reasonable to me and maybe you could take that stance?

@GeorginaTheGiant

FFS don’t put her only furlough. It makes me want to weep hearing of the many abuses of the scheme. The economy is going to be utterly fucked and people using furlough to cover a couple of weeks here and there is really not helping! Furlough was to keep jobs in existence during the immediate lockdown. It wasn’t to enable a nanny not to be out of pocket after choosing to go on holiday abroad!!

Yes on reflection and having RTFT I agree, furlough not appropriate here.

OP, as I have found myself, the employer/employee relationship with a nanny is a very tricky one to navigate. Whilst legally she has rights and you have rights which you are both entitled to exercise, at the end of the day your nanny is in your home caring for your most precious thing(s) - you don't want to upset them because, as you say, you don't want them being disgruntled and that affecting their work. I know that I should have put down firmer boundaries/ picked up on things at the beginning with my nanny but I didn't (I don't like confrontation) and it has led to all sorts of grief/piss taking.

I completely understand why you are taking umbrage at paying her in full and picking up the costs of replacement childcare BUT is that short time pain for long term gain? Is she otherwise a great nanny who has a close bond with your child and goes above and beyond? How easy would it be to replace her if she left (and would you have to pay an agency fee which would be similar to paying her some/all of her 2 weeks' salary)?

I think your suggestion of a compromise is a good one, particularly if she hasn't asked to be paid in full.

Loving the “morally you should pay her” posts. No you shouldn’t. She is unavailable for work, she’s not sick, so she needs to take unpaid leave, or perhaps if she has more holiday she can take that. People on here seem to not realise that there’s radical concept where to get paid for work you actually have to turn up and do some work. 🙄

OP, as a former Nanny - I'd say don't pay her.

She knew the risk and the financial burden should be on her.

As an aside, it seems like you don't like her very much (not a judgement at all, just an observation), and don't trust her particularly so it may be worthwhile looking for a replacement anyway.

Most responsible people cancelled their holidays because of the risk of having to quarantine. Why should the selfish irresponsible folk be paid to take yet more time off at somebody else's expense. Welcome to the new c.f. club.

The organisation I work for is pretty decent but even they've said it's unpaid or annual leave for quarantine following a holiday.

If it were me I would give her the choice to use her remaining annual leave to quarantine, or take it as unpaid leave. I imagine you will have to pay someone else to cover for her, this is very unfair that you would end up having to pay for two childcare providers.

We all know the risks, she made a decision. All along the advice has been that things can change at any time, and the risk involved with any travel to any destination are clear.

I am sure she already knows she will have to quarantine and can not work, and should be apologising for letting you down, she must have been off work for weeks and weeks, leaving you with a logistical nightmare.

I am usually the first one to say pay nannies, cleaners etc and to treat them as you would expect to be treated by your employer and possibly better as these people are in your home.

But in this case, I would agree with you that you need to look at what is legally required. If she booked and planned the holiday after lockdown, this was a clear risk. If you've been topping up to full pay throughout lockdown, you've already demonstrated that you value her and want to be ethical. But there comes a point at which that line is crossed and you enter "being taken advantage" of territory.

And there's no precedent. In retrospect, it's clear that all employers, big and small, should have made their stance on this clear. But we've never gone through this before so very few actually thought about it.

Also, agree completely that you want to keep a nanny on side etc etc etc. But I'd also say that when you're doing a job that is that "intimate" for want of a better word, you need to understand that the smallest thing can make the employers uncomfortable and put your job in jeopardy.

People in office jobs won't get paid to self isolate so why should she? I don't agree that's its reckless but it's a chance that has been taken that didn't have to be so her choice and therefore shouldn't be paid!

For the record, we paid her full salary when she was in furlough, but by going on holiday abroad I think she was reckless, she knew this might have happened, so I don't see why I should be paying for a risk she was aware of but decided to ignore.

For the records, the fact you decided to pay her rather than furlough has nothing to do with the current situation and doesn’t make you someone absolutely amazing.
And the fact she went in hols abroad wasn’t reckless either. Spending your holidays in a hot sport such as Leicester is.

I am not sure about the morals of leaving your employer in the lurch after taking a well flagged risky holiday, I don't think that is the actions of a conscientious and committed employee personally.

Did you discuss the quarantine risk before your nanny left op? I have said to anyone that works for us that we won't be paying for quarantine if they do decide to travel, and also that we would rather they didn't work for two weeks after regardless of where they have been. Any travel is high risk, and we are trying to be as careful as we can.

And the fact that other families have been less than nice etc... also has no bearing on what you should do. (See comments about how your nanny told you that others families did x and y)

What has OP said/done that gives you the impression she doesn’t value her nanny, BrimFullOfAsher?

Everything I’ve seen on the news about this is that “the government is hoping employers will be generous”, i.e. they’re hoping employers will pay people who get caught up in last minute changes to quarantine rules because they aren’t obliged to.

I’d check it with industry bodies as you’ve said, and then call her (follow up in writing) to say that this time only you’re prepared to offer X amount per week as a gesture of goodwill, but this should not be taken as setting a precedent, and in future if she needs to quarantine on return from holiday that will be unpaid - unless taken (with agreement from you) from her annual leave allowance - excepting circumstances under which relevant legislation mandates you should pay her for periods of quarantine.

@Friendsoftheearth fwiw I did that.

Because going in that country was the opportunity for me to see my elderly parents. One of who is highly vulnerable.
Now, seeing that I’m pretty sure that there will be a second wave in the autumn/winter, I wanted to see them before that, in case, this time said parent would catch the virus and die.
Is that the action of a less than committed employee? Someone who is reckless etc? I dint think so. People are entitled to spend their holiday the way they want. Including doing some risky activities than you would never consider (free climbing anyone?) wo suddenly becoming less than desirable employee. Someone who never turns up, stays at home for a little bit of a cold etc... is

Have you asked her what she is expecting?
Then you could work together on a compromise.
That way she'll feel more involved in the decision making and you can explain the extra costs/hassle you're going to incur as a result of her having to isolate.

(Personally, I wouldn’t be paying her at all but I recognise that you’ve said that you feel a compromise is fair given no discussions were had before she went away)

The reality is that you have to pay for 2 weeks elsewhere, so you shouldn't pay twice. I would make an exception if I knew she had been to see family abroad or something rather than just on holiday though, as it must be hard for those who haven't seen them in ages. It's not a secret that 'safe corridors' have been removed at late notice in the last few weeks, and it was her choice to go.

People saying there’s a moral obligation to pay and OP should worry about the nanny leaving seem to have missed that they paid her full pay on furlough.
The relationship is two-way. Yes, the nanny could walk, but she also then takes the risk of not finding another job, or finding one that doesn’t give her full pay if another lockdown occurs.
Given the above, if the nanny is disgruntled about not receiving full pay when quarantining, whilst having been aware of the risks of travelling, I’d say she’s not really an employee that you’d want anyway.

You said you paid her during furlough- but you’re presumably claiming that back from the state, so weren’t particularly out of pocket? Or did you top up the Extra 20%.

Anyhow, all comes down to how you value future relationship. I’d have a frank discussion and explain your perspective and see what she says (she might volunteer a pay cut). I have had a similar scenario With cleaner (although cheaper) who I paid regularly through lockdown, cleaned for me for 3 weeks in June, then went on 2 weeks AL to Spain (paid), then had to quarantine (paid), came back for 1 week and is now isolating again due to contact. So has cleaned for me 4 weeks in 5 months on full pay. Whilst I’m also sympathetic (& glad she’s honest), it’s starting to test me and the quarantine was really grating.

OP if I was in your situation it would probably depend on how the nanny has reacted. Are they very apologetic at leaving you in the lurch? Have they asked about using paid or unpaid leave? I’d be really annoyed if they just assumed I’d be paying in full as well as covering the additional costs for alternative childcare.

@ParentOfOne - paying the equivalent of statutory sick pay seems fair. It’s more than you are obliged to do, but acknowledges the difficulties caused by sudden changes in rules, especially in countries like Croatia, where the change in the coronavirus rate was so rapid that it may well have looked safe to her when she started the holiday (and in reality, probably is still safer than the UK - certainly safer than having a trip to Oldham!). As a matter of interest, Germany is only changing its rules for travellers coming back from specific parts of Croatia, not setting a blanket rule (not that it’s necessarily Croatia your nanny has gone to). I don’t think you are actually obliged to pay her anything, but that would come across as harsh (whereas the other extreme of paying her in full to quarantine would be going to the other extreme!).