Seasoned Nanny employers or Nannys am I right to be miffed.................( bit long sorry )

[mummypoppins]

Just got to work and a bit pissed off!

Our Nanny has been with us for 9 months now. She is 38 and has 20 years experience. She is orginally from England but moved to Australia when she was 3 months old so all her nannying experience is there.

She has come to England because she wants to study Homeopathy and was attracted to our job because we have 2 school age children so she has time off during the day to study.

She is paid £270 n pw ( we live in the country in the midlands ). She has her own annexe with Kitchen , shower room , Tv dvd , free broad band etc and a completely paid for 3 yr old Scenic entirely at her disposal . She does not contribute to this in anyway apart from her own diesel ( althought tbh I dont keep too much in terms of tabs on her and if she paid for her private diesel out of the kitty I would never know ). I am very naughty too as I dont declare that she has the car for private use so neither we nor her have to pay tax on it.She takes it to College ( 35 miles away ) at least 4 times a month as well as trips to London and other places at the weekend.

She has had everything that she has asked for in terms of resources..........new Kitchen stuff for her kitchen, brand new leather sofabed and pine table and chairs for her annexe and a £100 fancy screen that she wanted to make her space look nice ( DH would explode if he new ).

I lent her money ( £500 ) in the summer to pay for her college fees and pay her early if she is going away and asks ( twice in 9 months ). We took her to Centre Parcs for the weekend for free and she didnt lift a finger when we were there or pay even for a round of drinks and we didn't count it as 2 days holiday.

She went to Edinburgh for the week in May and we ferried her to and from the airport ( 240 miles ) for free.

I bought her Tiffany jewelrry for her birthday in August.

Her contracted hours at 7am to 11 and 3 to 7pm no babysitting at all except as overtime at £10 per hour with full time to cover the holidays . She is supposed to do all nursery duties, food shopping ( she has an unlimited budget for this and always buys the best as she loves expensive things...........I have never complained ). In actual fact she did a deal with my cleaner ( who does 12 hours a week ) and the Nanny now does washing and ironing and the cleaner does all the cleaning ( incl Kids stuff ).

She runs errands if I ask and feeds cats if we are away for the weekend. She does the dishwasher during the week and will put a meal in the slow cooker on a Friday for the whole family friday evening. Quite often she finishes early on a Friday as my DH doesnt work Friday pm and so he will do the school pick up and just leave her to finish off unpacking uniform and then she clocks off.

She will organise play dates but only if it suits her. In the holidays she spent an absolute fortune on going out and eating out with the children which again I never moaned about.

All in all I think ist a pretty easy job...........we live in a huge house with a lovely garden...........she has her own patio and garden furniture.............we have a swimming pool too.............if we go out for a meal en famille at the weekend or have a takeaway etc we always include her.

I have taken her shopping at the weekend never mind if she buys magazines to read for the house etc etc.

NOW TO THE CRUNCH!

This week my husband is away on business and I am particularly stretched at work so I asked her if she would cover some etxra hours. It will be 4 hours over 3 evenings........ie till 8pm 2 nights and until 9pm on Friday night. She has said no problem and confirmed that she wants to discuss how she is going to be paid for all this time she is doing.

I AM REALLY PISSED OFF. We have 2 big holiadys coming up. She is entitled to 20 days plus Bank holidays but will have 27 plus Bh unless I ask her to work when we are not around. I feel that we should be counting the axtra hours as hours in lieu.

What is every ones view. Am I being fair to her. Is it a reasonable job ?

Thankyou you made me laugh!! I really need to get on with some work though.........I went back to the office full time when dd was 9 weeks old and ds 17 weeks old no probs at all and right now I miss them more than ever!

I am wallowing in my own patheticness !

I've been lurking on here without anything useful to add - apart from some empathy - but am intrigued about all the talk of whether the nanny has to work while you are away.

Our nanny gets 20 days a year (on top of bank holidays), and I get 25 days (was reduced when I went in house ) - but since DH and I both work full time I tend to find that my "extra" five days get used up quite easily on admin things (down time on a change of nanny this year, could equally be half a day to deal with decorators etc here and there). Plus, DH struggles to actually take his quota of holidays. what am I doing wrong (or are all of you self employed / longtimers in private practice etc etc)?

LA I get 25 days but the Nanny only has to take 2 weeks of her hols when we do so for instance she had 5 days bang in the middle of the school holidays when we were still at work becaus e she said she was tired looking after the children all day long.

We did have a long break this year so we are going at Christmas by which time she will not ahve enough holiday left to cover it.

Do you make your nanny have time off when you do ??

nothing useful to add but sympathy and a perspective for the future-

I'm finding for myself at least that it's best to not do "kindnesses" and "favours" for people who work for you, which in your heart you are totting up. You will benefit only if you don't expect anything in return. It's easy to feel generous on a good day, then 2 months later filled with resentment about that box of chocolates you gave them, because they have since let you down/asked for even more money/quit.

Mp...I just LOVE that....can you imagine us saying to our boss that we need time off cos we've had enough. I think it's time for you to say enough and start looking for another nanny...sorry

Message withdrawn

goodness you sound so like me 2 yrs ago, we were taken for a ride by a nany I bent over backwards to keep happy. In the end i realised it was up to me to manage her as her employer not her new best friend, needless to say we parted company, i have changed working patterns and dd2 now at nursery...but i still remember how stressed i felt, when you fork out a lot of money for stress free child care !

Major stress you are so so right. When will I ever learn!

Lisa lisa I take your point but she always has notice if we need her and this week has been exceptional.

The letter was left with the diary this morning. I will discuss with her tonight which I am more than happy to do but she was aware that we needed her to be flexible and she said she was quite happy with that when we interviewed her.

Its always very difficult with a live in Nanny because of course they are on hand but she lives in a sep annexe so when she goes home she can absolutely switch off.

If she is cross and decides to go then I face the consequences but I won't shell out money hand over fist because she things we have it and then give her extra holiday with nothing in return.

Exactly lisalisa-help, there are a lot of lawyers on this thread and I'm not-however, as well as employing nannies for yonks I also employ 55 people at work so feel I know a little about it!

It's all down to the contract-as I see it, you can be as generous as you like as long as you observe your employee's rights. And then she in turn must respect your agreement.

So-mistake number 1 MP is not writing down the expectation to babysit in the week.
Mistake number 2 was agreeing £10 an hour babysitting-I am not in London but who pays that much????

You could get a local reliable teenager for half that and without the aggro-and your children would enjoy that too!

Of course, overnights are different but don't forget that she is there anyway as she lives in and it's relative down time so I would negotiate a rate that is fair and reflects that(can't remember exactly what you said so glossing over a bit)

Squiffy-yes I am sure changing nannies tit-for-tat would be a nightmare but having spoken to nanny agencies, nannies are regarded as a special case as the "job" tends to outgrow them. So it may well be possible but I would certainly consult a lawyer if I did do that!
MP ,is your nanny on a year's contract or open-ended? If the former, one option would be to just give her notice that you will not be renewing the contract, I would have thought you could then look for a new nanny with tighter T and C.
The thing is, it's an emotional response a swell isn't it-I love my nanny because she loves my kids, is flexible, and a lovely gitl as well but sometimes I feel as if I have a 4th daughter and fret about her wellbeing!

In fact-confession time-I haven't worked f/t for 6 years and have dropped my days from 3 to 2 6 montsh ago buts still employ her f/t over 4 days as I don't want to lose her-I still need nanny hours for the days I work and we like to have some time away just us 2(me and DH not me and the nanny!!!) and seh steps in admirably.
In fact, at the moment, as I don't work Fridays usually I pay her for the day and she goes and cleans the next door barn holiday let and pops in to give the kids tea!
I know, there's one born every minute.....

Anyway MP, chin up and put aside your fears about what might happen-as you have seen from respnses you will have no trouble finding a new nanny if push comes to shove and your kids will sail through it!

I've spent so long typing this that the whole thread has probably moved on!

just replying to the holiday point - I just try and be as reasonable as possible / plan as far in advance as possible (pretty much the same approach as you have to apply to your workmates in a legal team really) - so far this year I've picked a couple of weeks, but checked that our nanny is OK with them before booking - and DH and I have each taken a couple of days leave to cover mondays or fridays when she has wanted to take a long weekend - we've just got back from a week's holiday and I've asked her to have a think about how much time she'd like to take over Xmas so that I can plan ahead / we can work out what to do. Frankly, given no school holidays at this point it doesn't make too much difference to me when we take holidays as long as there's advance notice and we don't take more than about 10 days in a block....

in terms of flexible working / last minute crises, I don't really have an answer for you but can sympathise about the concern you have about keeping the nanny happy - before I moved in house I found it very difficult to keep ringing / explaining that I was going to be half an hour late all the time (we have a daily nanny), and very conscious about trying to compensate by getting home early on other days etc- much easier now that I'm in house - I expect that you're much more dependent as a partner (although, as I keep telling DH, one of the perks of partnership is supposed to be dumping everything on the senior associates and leaving the building - at least that's how it worked when we were senior associates!). lisalisa - completely agree with you re: working through lunchhour, and I think you should stick to your guns aside from the odd occasion when other people schedule meetings, unavoidably, at 9. Frankly, in magic circle firms large numbers of people wander in at about 9.30 (partly late nights, partly the perils of the london transport system) so I'm surprised it's an issue.

We needed the flexibility of a nanny(ours is daily) as we are both doctors-but I can say that the more senior you are, the buck stops with you! My nanny understands that I work through minor illness such as a cold etc, and I expect her to do so as well! Especially now they are in school.

Also, both DH and I have to take it in turns to work Xmas so when we do , she does as well(I mean normal working days not BH of course).

I'm staggered that your nanny had to take a dy off in the summer hols because she was tired MP!

I have no issue at all with sickness etc....she has had a couple of times whe she was rough and still cam to work but of course because she has great flexibilty once the children are dropped off at school she has on a number of accasions come home to bed and left her other chores until another day. Which is abs fine by me.

So if you need your nanny to work over ie past 7pm or whatever her normal finishing time is do you always pay overtime or is there give and take because she gets more holiday ( as drs you get long hols.........half my family are Consultants ! )

We would prob never expect her to work Christmas because at least one of us doesnt have too so that must be a perk. In addition she has also said that in 2 years she will go home for a month as she is an aussie so I will have to plan round that if she is still here and of course I wouldnt dream of saying no because I think that would be unfair of me.

Mummypoppins would you be able to get a month off easily from work? I know neither of us would! And how would you cover it? Would you pay her for the whole time?

Yes we do get long holidays-I get 6 weeks and DH gets the same I think. So we each keep a week or so up our sleeves to cover her leave.

Her finish time is 7.30pm but we don't pay her overtime as we are generous in other ways and I discussed all this with her when she started and established that she was happy with that. I don't keep a detailed log of hours under/over worked but I do keep a tally in my head so I know we are not taking advantage-she is happy with that though I know another nanny not be. But then we are not strict about 10 -15 mins at the end of the day because she is often a bit late too(always in fact) so we built that into the day too!

OK - another lawyer weighing in.

Can't answer all of these points, but I think basically you are expecting to set off the extras against the minuses and she is not. And I can understand where you are both coming from.

I do pay my nanny for overtime (and it does work out at more than £10 an hour) but I did make it clear right at the beginning that she would have to do it if we were both stuck work-wise. So in my position it seems unfair to say that she has no alternative but to do it and then not pay her or pay her at less or not much more than her hourly rate. What I did say, however, was that overtime only kicked in after half an hour, so basically if one of us is running late/stuck on a train, that all comes out in the wash with the times she goes early when we are back early. So I have a sort of built in buffer, which we are both happy with.

Basically I use the model of how our PAs at work are paid - my nanny is coming in for a Saturday afternoon to help at DDs party and I am paying her at time and a half for that (which is what we would do for a PA on a Saturday afternoon).

I think part of the problem is that because we have to cover everything - and work crappy hours with no additional obvious remuneration - then it is easy to think everyone should. And my children and my nanny all adore each other so it is easy to forget it is a business arrangement. But I think it works best (for me) when I remember that's that is what it is.

Yes, Anchovy, I should have said that usually one of us is home within half an hour of her finish time-if not, we phone her and let her know and would definitely pay her for longer-although she has refused payment in the past and it happens rarely.
If I plan ahead and arrange it with her then we either agree payment or time off in lieu.

I do have to regularly do a check that we are being fair to her-I do rubbish hours on the days I work but am remunerated and am my own boss-she isn't.

You see as she has only just asked after 9 months I thought she was happy with the odd hour here and there too and I think thats where the problem lies. I felt I was giving her perks etc and she was happy to be flexible but may be she thinks she is being taken for a ride so I will have to see what she says when she I get home. We have once asked her to work at the weekends during the day and I paid her £10 ph cash so in reality more. I am not mean far from it. I spent £200 on her for her birthday fgs!

Its easy to take advantage of people I know but I dont feel we have so I need to understand that If I am going to be charged £10 per hour to sit with a book in the playroom watching TV ( which is what she does if she ever works over even if the playroom needs tidying ) exactly what I will get back when we are on holiday and she has used up her holiday entitlement doing other things.

If she insists on charging me there is nothing I can do about it as her contract does not allow me to pay her as time in lieu ( why oh why didnt I think about this !!!! ). But she will find herself just doing her contractual hours and I will get my mother to cover or Sophie the babysitter across the road who is very sweet and is delighted with a fiver an hour.In addition of course I will not be so keen to pay her 2 weeks early when she is going on holiday or say her mother can pitch up and stay!

And no neverenough I could not take a month off in a million years. I might get my 2 week family holiday if its school holidays but otherwise I will have to get a temp nanny at huge expense.

To the OP - on the month off - all the nanny employers I know here in Paris expect to give their nannies from far off lands a month's paid holiday (with flights) every year to go and visit their families. Admittedly the pay and conditions of the nannies is nothing like as cushy as those you give your nanny.

But I still tend to think that nannying is a job with no prospects that imposes severe limitations on an employee's personal life, and so it does have to have other perks - like fixed hours, paid overtime and a month off

I dont disagree with you Anna but my nanny doesnt want to be a nanny for ever as she is doing a 4 year course over here and therefore wanted a cushy job that she could combine with study which is what we gave her.

Even though my children are at school all day she doesnt do any cleaning apart from wiping round the kitchen

I think the bottom line is we have a our wires crossed and we need to uncross them to get this sorted.

My mind is just boggling at the thought of all the overseas employees who work for the NHS taking a month off every year to go home at the NHS' expense-a lot of them are in low paid ,no prospects work as well!

Actually, in Australia, there is a thing called long service leave-every 7 years you get 3 months off on full pay or 6 months on half pay if you work in the public sector.The origin of this was to enable you to go back to visit your family in the old country. Nice perk-but it's every 7 years not every year!

neverenough - I don't think that is quite comparable. Most nannies here in Paris live in (like the OP's nanny) and have zero personal life, week in, week out, except for the occasional outing with other nannies. So basically the month off is in lieu of personal life the rest of the time.

NHS employees (however lowly) can still go home to their families at the end of the day.

Sorry Anna8888, I misunderstood the emphasis of your post-that sounds quite different from most nannies here, who work reasonably long hours but most will have weekends off and most evenings.I do think still though that Mummypoppins shouldn't feel obliged to agree to a month's holiday for her nanny if it is going to prove difficult and expensive to provide cover.Her T and C are very different to that of the nannies you describe in paris.

I think it is difficult for live in Nannies. We have tried to introduce ours to people. We have even paid for a babysitter on a saturday night and taken her out with us as she is similar age...........makes it even harder then when the relationship is a little wobbly!

mummypoppins

can read whole post! Just want to make it clear that IMO you do seem like a very nice kind reaosnable employer!

Also in terms of working while you are away, as a nanny i would be really unimpressed to be expected to work while the whole family were away... I mean im a nanny,... i look after children lol

Saying that i manage to squeeze all my nursary duties into my contracted hours...

saying that in the summer my bosses went on holiday for a week. (Im a daily nanny by the way) In the 2 weeks before their holiday they had intruders TWICE (they have a gate alarm so my daddyboss herd the alarm go at random times and found intruders in their garden, then later those evening the nighbours were burgled)
During my week off i was having my bathroom done and it worked out i had no bath and no toilet for the same week.
Therefore my bosses asked if i wanted to stay at theirs (as an extra deterrent for intruders etc and the hosue looked lived in) but it also suited me as living in a hosue with no loo is a complete nightmare!

While i was there i just could not resist having a massive sort out of all the kids clothes, and the entire playroom, sorted out all the books and every toy box and found every piece of every toy and put it all back in the correct places! Also washed all the coats / hats / gloves /fleeces and things like the cosy toes for the buggy!... then there was a massive problem with the burglar alarm, so i sorted that out, liased with the police and stayed in for the alarm people to come and sort the problem!

This was all during my week holiday chosen by them! But i did it because I was there and I wanted to do it

She took holiday because "she said she was tired looking after the children all day long."

I'm sorry, but she's a nanny with 20 years experience, right? Isn't that what we do - look after children all day long? What about all the FT nannies with a baby and a toddler all day every day?

You've got to be kidding....