Childminder deposit

[Chicolico]

Hi

My wife is returning from maternity leave in May after second child and we have paid a deposit of 50% of fees (800) for childminder. The childminder has just informed us she has got a Rottweiler. It might be the loveliest of dogs but I will never trust it 100% even if it is meant to be kept separate from the kids.

She will not pay the deposit back which seems to me a bit harsh as we would never had agreed had we known she was getting this dog. It is also nearly 4 months away so we are not leaving her in the lurch. She has looked after our oldest for 2 years and we have been happy so it seems a real shame to finish on these terms. We are probably being over protective but I just can’t feeling uneasy.

Do we have any rights or do I just have to write this one off. £800 is a lot of money just to walk away from and I understand she was keeping a place for us. In my view the circumstances changed.

I am really surprised Ofsted passed her

Hmmm what if child is allergic to dogs- surely would have to return the money then right?

I wouldn't like a childminder with a dog of bu kind near my child

1.Ring OFSTED

1. Tell her you will be informing them that not only did she only tell you after you paid deposit but that she refused to return it.

Why on earth would Ofsted be interested in contractual disputes over money!? They are a regulatory care body.

@mumwon really? Childminders are allowed dogs, everything is risk assessed.

I own dogs myself but I have to say Rottweilers are a breed I wouldn't trust or want around my children so I'd feel the same about it as op.

You could raise a small claims court action against the Cm for your deposit back, citing the reason as her changing the environment from dog free where you would not have agreed to the space had you known she had a dog.

By her changing the terms and conditions of which you signed up to I believe that would count as a breach of contract.

Perhaps take legal advice. £800 is a lot to lose.

I’m personally not at all keen about dogs around children. But she’s entirely within her rights to have any dog at a childcare setting if properly risk assessed and managed. I know many childminders who do, including one with a pit bull terrier: Ofsted graded her Outstanding.

Someone mentioned allergy to dogs. It’s a valid point, but only applicable if you child is allergic.

Ofsted never get involved in contract disputes. They are there to apply the regulations, which allow dogs. So don’t think you can use the threat of a complaint as leverage.

In the first instance, I would ask to see a risk assessment, and get a written guarantee she will stick to it. IME it’s not uncommon for someone to draw up a perfectly acceptable risk assessment but then fail to follow it: essentially because a lot of dog owners simply don’t believe their dog could ever do harm.

Your best chance would probably be to demand a partial refund under standard Consumer Rights Act conditions which governs the terms of all deposits. This would apply however you left, irrespective of the dog situation.

I used to be a childminder and ad far as I am aware, she's changed the circumstances of childcare so I would think you are perfectly within your rights to a full refund.

She may well be within her rights to get a dog, but it doesn't mean you have to be happy to carry on the arrangement.

I would ask her to show you her insurance policy which will have support with financial loss.

I bought a dog whilst childminding but checked the current parents were happy first. If they hadn't been I would definitely had thought twice if it was worth risking my current families who came to me.

What's grounds does she have for keeping the deposit? She's changed the goal post, so definite pursue this.

Could citizens advice help? I would ask them what they think

I agree it's a breach on co tract. She has changed her terms and conditions. Take action in the small claims court to get the deposit returned. You can do this online.

Have you paid final bill for your older child? Can you offset some of the deposit?

I think your concerns are valid.

This information should of been made available to you before you agreed to have your child looked after.

Thank you for the responses. Just to clarify she did already have a dog and she is perfectly within her rights to have a dog. We just could not stomach what we perceive as a potentially more dangerous dog being close to our children.

Your best bet is to get some legal advice take a copy of the contract with you. The environment has changed as the breed and age of the dog has changed.
I had a dog as a cm and 110% followed my risk assessment never ever leaving my dog alone with children I resent the above comment suggesting dog owners always trust their dogs and effectively lie maybe that's the attitude of the poster and of some dog owners but by no means all, if you dont trust someone to be a responsible person with a dog you dont trust them with children and anything even without a dog....more children die or are seriously injured on the roads for example.....or in a nursery.

At the start of this thread, I didn’t fancy your chances of convincing the small claims procedure that your childminder had breached the contract.

This:
to clarify she did already have a dog
makes it even harder to make the case that she has 'moved the goalposts'.

@jannier

As I’ve explained on another thread, my concerns about childcare providers of various types (not just childminders) failing to follow their own risk assessments arise from first hand experience.

I have helped numerous childminders, preschools and nurseries draw up risk assessments for dogs (not to mention the odd corn snake, but that’s another story.) Several chose to make a point of saying the dog would be kept away from children at all times, or that children would be supervised one to one when the dog was present. Not really necessary, but the respective providers were keen not to put off the ore nervous, dog-wary potential clients.

But then I see those same providers, with minded children, playing or walking the dog in the park. Or I do a visit to their setting and the dog is in the room with three children.

I’m not saying these dogs are particularly dangerous. What I’m saying is that it is patently stupid to write one thing in a risk assessment then do the opposite. It’s asking for trouble with Ofsted and clients.

One nursery had a "dogs policy" published on its website, stating strictly no dogs are permitted on the premises at any time, guide dogs excepted. Ofsted conducted an unannounced inspection in response to a complaint and found a dog loose in the outdoor play area. The manager admitted it was there frequently, as it belonged to a member of staff who needed to walk it during her break. She also admitted she knew it broke the risk assessment, but the dog was quite safe. Obviously Ofsted immediately downgraded them to 'requires improvement' and slapped an 'action' notice on the nursery because no matter what the animal's temperament, it was a clear failure to apply their risk assessment.

I think she has taken quite a risk to her business in getting a Rottweiler. I imagine a lot of parents would take a similar stance to yours and not want to send their child to her.

I could probably have dealt with a different dog in a childminder setting, but Rottweilers have got such a bad reputation, there’s no way I think it’s a suitable pet around small children.

Ive just googled about Rottweilers though and it seems to be quite positive that they can be good dogs around children and families as they are very loyal and intelligent. I’m not sure I’m convinced tbh...

If she already had a dog, and you just object to this breed without knowing anything further, I'd say yabu or at least not approaching the dispute the right way.

Check the actual terms of your contract. Read the small print. Maybe go and meet the dog to see if it's as bad as you think.

You might be able to negotiate a part return of the deposit, which would be better than nothing.

I'd go to see the dog, then write a letter saying you feel the environment has changed and you were not consulted, that she's in breach of her duty to provide a safe environment and you'll pursue a small claim if need be.

Check your insurance policies for legal expenses insurance too, it might cover some help on a contractual dispute. Any policy (house, car etc) can have it thrown in as an extra but they'll have to see the claim as worth pursuing in order to help.

Correction. In my earlier post I stated that an Outstanding childminder acquaintance owns a pit bull terrier. Having spoken with her last night, the dog is in fact a Staffordshire bull terrier.

Apologies for the error.

@corduroyal has stated a reasonable course of action.

The OP needs to discuss his concerns with the childminder and see what safety measures she plans to put in place. If he’s still not happy, then negotiate a partial refund. In any case I’d expect him to be entitled to a considerable amount back under his basic consumer rights.

It’s not worth pursuing as a breach of contract, unless you think the childminder is likely to panic and surrender at the first sign of a solicitor’s letter. As you say, he’d need to prove she was "in breach of her duty to provide a safe environment" and that in turn would need an Ofsted judgment.

The selfishness of dog owners really surprises me sometimes and I can't believe this woman would be so ignorant to get another dog without consulting you.

No way would I be leaving my child with that breed of dog no matter the temperament.

I would send her an email using the wording pp's have used here claiming that the environment has significantly changed and that you will be seeking the advice of a solicitor or and contacting OFSTED unless you receive your deposit within 7 days.

I would call a couple of solicitors as many will offer half an hour free advice.

Truly hope you get his sorted.

@Chicolico

Did the childminder have the dog at the time of any of her previous inspections?

Did Ofsted make any comments, positive or negative, in relation to the dog, her ability to manage it, or the risk assessment?

Have there been any complaints or formally reported incidents in relation to the dog?

@knightlight.
Ofsted are not interested in contractual disputes. The OP can not complain about standards of care as there is no evidence of a problem. Providers even dog owning ones are entitled to make changes to their provision, the question is does getting a second or replacement dog make a fundamental change to the service offered.....someone with legal training would need to look at it all including the risk assessments and policies to get an idea of this, so for example if at the time of signing the policy was children have no contact with the dog having 2 dogs no matter what breed wouldn't change it....the op would have accepted that policy.....so she needs to get the policy if give and go for advice.
Threatening legal action would have no impact 9n the childminder as that would be covered by their insurance so cost her nothing.

@itsaboojum.
I would agree it's stupid to write a policy or do a risk assessment that does not reflect your practice but that does not mean that everyone is doing it, I'm guessing your a LA advisor and trust you pulled them up on it and the serious outcomes should anything happen even if not dog related when their breaching what they have now made ineffect a legal commitment. But you cant assume every setting breaches every policy if it suits them (or even just e very dog owner). Did you whistleblow?

The selfishness of dog owners really surprises me sometimes and I can't believe this woman would be so ignorant to get another dog without consulting you.

@knightlight are you on glue?

What gives you the right to make sweeping generalisations about all dog owners based on one childminding dog owner choosing to get a Rottweiler puppy for her family?

People forget that childminders work in their own homes, these homes are shared with pets and their own husbands and children. If parents don't like the setting they can choose elsewhere.

It is not illegal or 'selfish' to own two dogs, or to own a Rottweiler.

The attitude and entitlement from people like you is quite frankly astounding.

@itsaboojum I thought that written risk assessments were no longer a requirement under the new framework?

I agree in principle that a dog running around a nursery garden is not the best but I think sometimes regulators go overboard.

So if they had updated their written risk assessment to say the dog would attend on certain days and times, only children without allergies would be in the proximity and parental permission would be sought first, dog on a lead and supervised that would be okay? The nursery staff could have been working to that rule anyway.

It's a shame children are missing out on these experiences which can be managed with careful planning and supervision.

@LucieLucie

I thought written risk assessments were no longer a requirement

You are absolutely correct. But providers frequently choose to employ them for clarity, especially for subjects like animals where some parents can be quite anxious.

And I was advising childcare providers when written risk assessments still were mandatory.