Childminder deposit

[Chicolico]

Hi

My wife is returning from maternity leave in May after second child and we have paid a deposit of 50% of fees (800) for childminder. The childminder has just informed us she has got a Rottweiler. It might be the loveliest of dogs but I will never trust it 100% even if it is meant to be kept separate from the kids.

She will not pay the deposit back which seems to me a bit harsh as we would never had agreed had we known she was getting this dog. It is also nearly 4 months away so we are not leaving her in the lurch. She has looked after our oldest for 2 years and we have been happy so it seems a real shame to finish on these terms. We are probably being over protective but I just can’t feeling uneasy.

Do we have any rights or do I just have to write this one off. £800 is a lot of money just to walk away from and I understand she was keeping a place for us. In my view the circumstances changed.

@jannier

To clarify, I certainly do not believe “every setting breaches every policy if it suits them (or even just every dog owner)"

Please indicate precisely where I said that.

I know for a fact the vast majority of childcare providers abide by very sound policies and risk assessments. My experience is that some (not all) can tend to diverge from an animal risk assessment. I can understand why this happens: in short, they write a policy to satisfy people who may be fearful of dogs (or snakes) when, in practice, they as animal-owners have an entirely different relationship with their pet.

As I’ve said, I don’t believe the OP has any case for the childminder breaching the contract. I say this because on prima facile evidence she appears to have a robust risk assessment in place which has satisfied her clients, including the OP, to date. By sticking to it, she has proved her ability to keep children safe and manage a dog. As you suggest, adding another dog doesn’t suddenly make her any less able to handle dogs.

The OP's view (and that of many posters) comes down to their perceptions of a particular breed. I would’ve thought the childminder's legal team will have no problem in arguing that is a personal view which gives insufficient cause to plead breach of contract.

If you were OK with her having a dog then im not sure you can now complain about the rotti. Have you actually met a rottweiler. In general they are lovely laid back dogs. They get a bad reputation but they are mostly daft. I'd ask to see risk assessment etc

With any luck, I’m hoping to see my legal chum over the weekend. I shall show her this thread and see what she says. Obviously, she won’t have the full facts, so it can’t be taken as specific legal advice (even if I can catch her while she’s still sober!)

I agree the OP needs to take proper legal advice, and might be able to draw on some help towards the cost through household insurance. Be aware the childminder will be able to draw on a legal team with extensive experience of this sort of case through her insurer or professional representative body. It won’t cost her any money, any very little time and fuss on her part.

But IIWY I’d drop the whole breach of contract thing as a lost cause, and go for a partial refund of deposit under Consumer Rights Act, as £800 is clearly excessive for the length of notice involved.

@Chicolico
Please clarify: is the £800 definitely shown on paper as a 'reservation deposit' or it a 'retainer'?

Correction to my earlier post “prima facile" should read "prima facie".

Dratted autocorrect.

It's a deposit. That's the whole point of it. She keeps it if you pull out.

How did you get to leaving a deposit without realising she has a dog?

Have you asked her whether they will be kept separate?

Have you googled information about the breed or let uneducated nonsense cloud your mind?

Id rather a Rottweiler around my child than any other breed. So long as it's well trained.

Ask to meet the dog. You'll be surprised.

Why on earth would Ofsted be interested in contractual disputes over money!? They are a regulatory care body.

They'll be interested to hear about the dog believe me!

@othervoicesotherrooms.
Why would they be interested about the dog? Are you assuming childminders cant have certain breeds or any dog? The requirement is that as with any change to who is living in the house they are informed and as with anything else that the childminder has risk assessed (does not need to be in writing) parents are aware....which this one is even though they are not yet using the service....you have no evidence to show that the cm has not informed ofsted.
So it's a contractul dispute.

@itsaboojum.
Good point about the deposit or retainer question so many get confused.
To anyone who dosent know a retainer is payment for the childminder to use as earnings now. If she has a space which she is keeping open she may charge a retainer of any amount up to full fee each week/month this is non refundable you can choose to use the space making up the hourly fee to full price with reasonable notice...read the small print on contract if your unsure.

She probably took £800 deposits off a few people then went and got the rottwieler knowing most people would feel uneasy and withdraw and she doesn't need to return the deposit and has months to find other kids for her setting. She's easily made herself a few £££££'s doing this, great business idea! She'll find a few dog owners with kids that will be happy to have the dog around their children so she wins all round....

Childminders generally don't go getting rottweilers! There's many breeds of dogs and even if the stories about rottweilers being a bad breed are unfounded, everyone knows there's a little reservation about them being around young children

Was she deceitful or dishonest about having a dog and/or it's breed?

If she was then she knows people have issue and deliberately kept quiet. That's not fair.

It seems odd to not know she had a Rottweiler when you handed the cash over. The question is where the fault lies? Ultimately regardless of your answer she should have made you aware as anyone who has a Rottweiler knows people are uneasy. My Rottweiler was the whole reason I didn't go until childminding after maternity leave. I knew he would hinder me but I loved him and didn't care.

Why would they be interested about the dog? Are you assuming childminders cant have certain breeds or any dog?

You need a pet policy. Not telling current/new parents that you have or are planning to get a dog is not acceptable.

@othervoicesotherrooms.
Have you not read the thread....the op knew she had a dog so would have discussed the pet policy....as in how the dog is around children and general health and safety measures....you dont have to have it in writing....so one dog or two does not change the policy. If I had a hard floor and discussed with you measures like non slip socks and how I prevent babies falling and banging head I wouldn't discuss it again if I changed the floor....( I know people are not scared of hard floors, although more children go to hospital over them than dogs, but it's an example).
Any puppy is as dangerous or safe as any other puppy, more people get bitten by labradors than rottweilers and 8n recent years more the top spot for bites has gone from labradors to smaller dogs so the breed is really irrelevant its stuff like teaching children to respect dogs space not to squeal and waves arms about as it attacks dogs to come play, not letting them around dog bowls ( most common bites) this is all part of keeping safe and all children should be taught it but most adults who dont know dogs have totally wrong body language and attract the dog themselves. Theres is research showing that teaching children to read dogs body language which I'd opposite to ours is the best way to keep them safe....Lincoln university 2019...

@othervoicesotherrooms

They'll be interested to hear about the dog believe me!
They already know she has a dog. She will have a pet policy and risk assessment in place as previously stated numerous times through this thread
What do you believe Ofsted will do? Seriously?

You need a pet policy. Not telling current/new parents that you have or are planning to get a dog is not acceptable.

Yes, she will have one. She did tell her new parents (op) she was getting a puppy. Hence the panicky thread looking to change provider.

What exactly is it that you still find unacceptable?

It's a deposit........ She keeps it if you pull out.

This isn’t entirely correct. Businesses are only legally entitled to keep that part of a deposit which covers their actual loss. They may be required to provide proof of that figure, and demonstrate they have taken reasonable steps to mitigate the loss.

People usually lose deposits because they think they have to lose them, instead of challenging the trader.

I doubt the OP's childminder would be able to prove anything like £800 of actual loss. This is the line the OP should probably be pursuing, instead of wasting his time over an argument he’s likely to lose. The more time he wastes, the less deposit he’ll get back.

@YappityYapYap

I have to thank you for giving me such a laugh on a wet, miserable morning. Your idea of the foolproof 'Rottweiler business plan for childminders' is hilarious. I’d say you should take it on Dragons Den, but for the one small problem. It wouldn’t work. All those customers/patsies you’re thinking of would have their £800 deposits protected by the Consumer Rights Act, still leaving her with an expensive animal to house and feed. That’s before you consider the fact that the childminder would’ve shredded her reputation and struggle to ever attract another client.

I’m not a pet owner, but even I can see that an experienced dog owner doesn’t take on such an animal lightly, nor as some kind of complicated childcare scam.

So, your approach here should be based on how many dogs she now has, as this changes the landscape and environment of the services she provides, the contract becomes null and void. Yes she owes you the deposit.

If she hadn't changed the environment your children will be in and you just changed your minds, then she wouldn't owe you anything.

Send an email or write a letter to that effect, and say you will get a small claims solicitor if you have to but would like to solve this amicably given the service she has given you did the last 2 years.

The fact it's a Rottweiler adds weight, in that you would have considered this prior to paying the deposit too, as personal choice. Again she has changed the environment without consulting her customers first.

CallMeRachel
Aww, sorry. You obviously love your doggies.
Hopefully the childminder will make it a bit clearer in future that all is above board. Maybe change her advert?
'Childminder has vacancies, one friendly Rottweiler, OFSTED approved'

Christ reading some of the comments on here are astonishing.

Firstly Childminder’s can have dogs. They can have snakes, spiders, hissing cockroaches if they like. They often provide a very good educational tool for children.

What’s not clear OP, is did you not visit the premises before you paid your deposit?
If you didn’t then that’s on you.
If you did visit and were unaware of the dog, then it sounds to me like the childminder is Keri g it separate? In which case, what’s the problem?

Heavens above calling ofsted??!! Get a grip.
I have two miserable cats, parents may or may not see them upon visiting, depending on whether the cats are out or not. Would you call Ofsted on me?

Yeah, I'm not sure @othervoicesotherrooms is in the uk or certainly not showing any knowledge of childminders in the uk. Lots of nonsense being spouted.

I love dogs. However, I would not choose a childminder who had a large breed powerful breed of dog, particularly a Rottweiler.

It doesn't mean it's not legal or allowed. It's down to parental choice.

The childminder HAS to risk assess and be responsible in managing the risks. Who would want something terrible to happen on their conscience?

you need a pet policy
no you don't

As PP have said under the consumer act the business cannot claim the whole value of the deposit in most circumstances even if it's written in the contract, unless the cancellation was done with very short notice. You can never contract out of statute law.

This Which article explains it well

www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/can-i-claim-back-a-non-refundable-deposit

You should be able to get a large percentage of the deposit back.

Personally, I don't know what the childminder was thinking getting a Rottweiler.

I’m a childminder & if I had done this I would give the deposit back as she has changed the goalposts really so I can understand why this is a concern for you. She still has 4 months until the child is due to start so could fill that space. I love dogs and would love to have one as a family pet but I wouldn’t do it in this job. It’s just added stress. No matter how friendly a dog is you still need to be cautious. Hope you get it sorted op.

Interestingly another dad has posted around the same time elsewhere on the www....same money, mum returning at the same time,
same breed of dog but the cm dosent already have a dog. That childminder is keeping the deposit too....