Advice appreciated - childminding rates

[alltheusernamesaregone]

Hi Mumsnet, first post here so apologies if I'm breaking all the rules.

I am a Dad to a 9 month old baby and my wife will be returning to work p/t in Jan. We live close to wife's sister (she has two school age boys) and are looking at using her childminder for our son one day a week. I'd really appreciate a sense check on rates for the CM. We live in SE4 (Honor Oak Park/Crofton Park).

During the day when she has our son and no others we have agreed £12 p/h which she suggested based on what she used to be paid as a nanny. Does this seem reasonable?

From 3pm to 6pm she will pick up SIL's two boys and take them and our son back to their house. I am not sure how to work out what a reasonable rate is for this period. SIL pays her £10 p/h for the two boys and this will not change so the question is what do we pay to top up to her total rate for all 3 children?

If we were calling her a childminder at that point - it might be reasonably straightforward to say £5 or £6 per hour x 3 children = £15 or £18 p/h. However I dont know if our son being a baby means the childminding rate is the same as for the older two.

If we were calling her a nanny then I understand there would be no increase in cost for more children (however I understand she is not a nanny as there is no formal employment contract etc).

She has suggested £20 p/h which seems to me to be high-ish but I dont want to be unfair to her (and dont want to damage her relationship with SIL).

Thoughts gratefully received.

Thanks

She's a childminder not a nanny so she can't be charging you nanny rates as nannys tend to get paid a set amount for multiple children whereas a childminder charges per child.

Why is your SIL only paying £5 per hour when CM wants you to pay £20 per hour? That is not on and most CMs I know do not charge extra for babies or different rates for different families/children.

I would be wary sharing the same CM as your SIL in these circumstances as it could potentially cause resentment between you and SIL.

£20 an hour is very high, even for London.

And if she's working at your SILs house she is not a CM but a nanny. CMs work from their own home/setting and are inspected by Ofsted based on an inspection of their own home/setting. Is she even registered?

Our childminder charges a flat rate, regardless of how many children she has.
We're in Lincolnshire, and we pay £3.60 per hour.
It sounds like a bit of an odd arrangement and what would happen if she then has other children to look after? Would your rate go down?

If she works at your SILs then she is a nanny.

If she works at her house then she is a childminder and must be registered with ofsted as a childminder.

Which is it? Or is it both, working as a childminder in the day and a nanny after school?

If she’s a childminder in the day then will she be allowed to look after other children as well as your son? If so £12 seems high.

And if she’s a nanny then £20 an hour for looking after 3 children would be high for london.

I think your first step is to ask her to clarify - is she a self-employed childminder and if so how can she work at your SILs?

NB some people claim to be “self-employed nannies” - this is unlikely to be legally valid, they’re almost always really employees in which case you’re liable for their tax, pension etc whatever they claim about being self-employed.

I pay a childminder, in the South East (Kent). Its £5.50 an hour including all nappies, food, milk, activities and trips out.

If the childminder only had my child, I don't pay Nanny rates because she's a childminder and not a nanny.

All the childminders I know charge a flat hourly rate per child. This arrangement sounds odd.

She had to work in hey own house to be a childminder. And she could look after two other children all day as well as yours so it's not comparable to nanny rates.

Is she a registered childminder?

Hi All

Thanks very much for your replies - to clarify:

The rate until 3pm is agreed with her and I dont want to challenge it - £12 p/h.

There is no suggestion that she would look after anyone else's children at any point during the day. Only our son until 3pm then she would also have SIL's 2 boys for the next 3 hours.

For those 3 hours, she is not asking us for £20 p/h on top of the £10 p/h she is charging SIL. She is suggesting £20 p/h would be the total amount for those hours where she has all 3 - so SIL would continue to pay £10 p/h and we would pay £10 p/h.

Part of me says - well after 3pm the hourly rate for our son comes down from £12 to £10 - what are you complaining about?

Another part says - she is charging SIL 2 x £5 p/h for her boys - how can she charge us £10 p/h for our boy?

Appreciate it might seem a bit non-standard. She seems a nice person and is good with our son. Also I am keen not to rock the boat with SIL.

I believe she is not a registered CM.

For an unregistered childminder the feed are quite high

In your area child minder rates are between £6-£8 an hour or £50-£60 a day.

You would be wise to consider a registered childminder as you may also be entitled to childcare cost support.

Have you used childcare.co.uk to have a look?

If she is not a registered childminder you are on very dodgy grounds indeed. If she gets reported to Ofsted or is found out by Ofsted she will be closed with immediate effect and you and your SIL will be without childcare with no notice.

If she is not registered she will not be qualified, will not be DBS checked, will not have insurance. Do you really want to put your child in that position? I would seriously think about what you are doing here.

You need to clarify several things:

If she is a nanny, she works from the child's home and gets an hourly rate regardless of the number of children but an agreed number. Usually one family, sometimes a state. She must be employed by BOTH families and you also pay her NI , pension and employers tax. She must have a contract , holiday, sickness pay and cannot take on or work for anyone else when she is looking after your children.

If she is a childminder, she must, by law, be ofsted registered, have done a childminding course, be registered with the council, have insurance, dbs, first aid training. She must work from her ow home which has been inspected. She can take on up to 8 children or so, legal ratios. She does not need your agreement. She is paid per hour or session per child. She is self employed and sets her own rates. She pays her own tax and ni.

You don't get to mishmash between the two. An unregistered childminder is illegal. A nanny without a contract and not registered as your employee is also illegal.

She needs to decide what she is.

Taking out all the queries about the rates in general, you are right that is your SIL is having 2 children by her and you 1, you need to pay 33.3% and her 66.6% of the £20.

In addition to the warnings in previous posts....

As an unlawful child 'carer' you won’t be able to create a binding contract. So she could walk away from your agreement at a moment’s notice, leaving you up the creek. She could also look after as many children as she fancied, without you even knowing. You can’t use any of the money saving schemes, such as tax free childcare (saving you 20%) which a registered childcare provider could offer.

If none of that troubles you, then perhaps this will. She is not a registered provider so she cannot take legal responsibility for your child. That mean you remain solely responsible for anything that happens to your child whilst in her 'care'. In other words, if anything goes wrong or there’s an accident or she has to seek medical assistance, then social services open a case on you. In f@ct, simply leaving a child with such a person could be reported to children’s social care department.

Also consider the fact that she doesn’t want to get found out. So if your child gets hurt, she’s going to think twice before seeking medical assistance.

And OP, your main questions seem to be all about money. What you should pay her. Nothing about her qualifications, her insurance, her legal status, your legal obligations-both contractual and employing somebody. You don't seem concerned at all about any of these things.

OP but she really does seem like a nanny and not a childminder, so different things. As a sole charge nanny, I think you should pay her the agreed £12 ph and then as it's a nanny share after 3pm both you and your SIL should be paying nanny share rates - which is currently minimum wage for her age from both of you

Around my way its around £5.00 an hour. £12 is very expensive. (thats for a childminder in there home.)

Just to be clear, she cannot legally look after your child in her home as she is not a registered childminder.

Registration is not a formality - it is a legal requirement.

If you want her to be a nanny, she needs to work in your home and you need to employ her.

In North London. My childminder charges £7 per hour per kid for after school. I have 2 dc with her.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I can see now that the relationship hasn't been defined as either one of childminding or nannying which may lead to problems.

I appreciate I have only asked about money rather than other issues such as background checks, qualifications etc. I didn't mention that when she is at our house, I will also be there as I work from home. When she is at SIL, she is one street away. This person has worked for my SIL (who is very sensible) for some time and vouches for her whch is significant for me. Before that, SIL used her mum who is a registered childminder and another person connected to the family, so we have known them for a long time and know them to be good eggs. Thats all clearly well and good - but doesnt cut it in the eyes of the law if things are not done properly I now appreciate but hopefully explains a bit why I'm presenting as more relaxed on that front.

I did come here asking to crowdsource opinion on rates and this has been helpfiul, but you have given me much aditional food for thought. Thanks.

Thank you - I think she is 25 so my google suggests that this would be 8.21 p/h.

You are saying we each pay that which makes her total rate £16.42 P/H after 3pm yes?

In that case I would probably round up to £17 and that would strike me as a reasonable target to settle on given my initial thought was £15 and hers was £20.

That last message was to shelvesoutofbooks.

You also need to decide is that net or gross. Typically nannies work on net rates, which means that when you employ her, which you must legally, you will pay more per hour than that, as you will pay employers NI based on her gross rate, not her net.
In London, an employed nanny starts around £12ph net, so you she is getting good deal getting paid per child as that is not usually what happens.

Have you also thought what will happen if your child is sick and she is meant to be at SIL house or the other way round? How will that work? Drag the sick child to the other house? Being the healthy kids to the sick kids house?
Will she have 4 weeks holiday from your employment and 4 weeks with SIL? Who will then cover her? Who sets her holiday dates? Her, you or SIL? What if you can't agree dates?

Also, the person who employs her first will pay a different tax rate then the second I think. So it will cost one family more than the other even when paying the same amount net. As you will be paying gross.

I may have misunderstood but I’m struggling to see a clear picture from your original post.

Are the children going to be at your home and/or SIL's home throughout the whole period (excluding necessary travel, school runs, trips to the park, etc.) ?

To a large extent the answer will define whether this is unregistered nannying or unlawful 'childminding'. If it turns out to nannying, then it’s probably lawful, but you’ll face a new set of legal responsibilities to make it so.

Is any of the care provided at the 'child carers' home? If so, how many hours in a day?