Advice appreciated - childminding rates

[alltheusernamesaregone]

Hi Mumsnet, first post here so apologies if I'm breaking all the rules.

I am a Dad to a 9 month old baby and my wife will be returning to work p/t in Jan. We live close to wife's sister (she has two school age boys) and are looking at using her childminder for our son one day a week. I'd really appreciate a sense check on rates for the CM. We live in SE4 (Honor Oak Park/Crofton Park).

During the day when she has our son and no others we have agreed £12 p/h which she suggested based on what she used to be paid as a nanny. Does this seem reasonable?

From 3pm to 6pm she will pick up SIL's two boys and take them and our son back to their house. I am not sure how to work out what a reasonable rate is for this period. SIL pays her £10 p/h for the two boys and this will not change so the question is what do we pay to top up to her total rate for all 3 children?

If we were calling her a childminder at that point - it might be reasonably straightforward to say £5 or £6 per hour x 3 children = £15 or £18 p/h. However I dont know if our son being a baby means the childminding rate is the same as for the older two.

If we were calling her a nanny then I understand there would be no increase in cost for more children (however I understand she is not a nanny as there is no formal employment contract etc).

She has suggested £20 p/h which seems to me to be high-ish but I dont want to be unfair to her (and dont want to damage her relationship with SIL).

Thoughts gratefully received.

Thanks

She is at my house with son until 3pm then walks to the local primary school to pick up SIL’s youngest. They all go back to SIL until 6pm when SIL gets back and I pick up my son.

SIL second son doesn’t get picked up from school as he’s now old enough to come home by himself.

Maybe the thing here is that we are trying to take advantage of an existing casual babysitting relationship that SIL has with this person - but by virtue of the hours and locations involved it would now need to be defined more formally as a nannying role?

Why does she not look after your son at SIL's house? That would resolve the legal issue, as it would then be a nannyshare (she is caring for your son, plus SIL's children all at SIL's home).

It fits with the legislation: 3(1)a,ii www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/979/article/3/made

It can then be contracted as a nanny, with you and SIL being joint or separate employers. You would have employers national insurance to pay and pension scheme to provide, so you would need to determine your overall costs.

It would be certainly reasonable for the amount you pay to be lower when the older children are present, maybe 33.33% but maybe 40% you and 60% SIL would make for an easier calculation and as her home is being used that may be seen to be a bit fairer.

Doing some of the care at your home and some at SIL's home could work but do consider what happens during school holidays. Do you want the older children at your home? Also consider if you are able to work from home whilst nanny and your son are there... it can work well and sometimes it does not.

I believe she is not a registered CM.

Why on earth would you put your children at risk by not choosing a registered childminder? If she is looking after children in her own home without registration with Ofsted or an agency, she's breaking the law. Is she insured? Has she completed a paediatric first aid course? Has she undertaken the relevant training? Will she be following the EYFS? She's not even a cheap option fgs. I charge £8 per hour for babies and I'm working legally! It all sounds like a very sub-standard arrangement to me, for the OPs convenience rather than in the child's best interests.

You really should not be entrusting someone to look after children if they are not registered. Does she even have a CRB or whatever they are called now?
Forget about the money side of things. Does she even have first aid training or even insurance?
Very dodgy...

This sounds much more like a nanny share than a childminder - you need to check up your legal responsibilities as a nanny employer. You are taking a huge risk if you don't do it legally. Leaving a baby full time is a lot different to hiring an afterschool babysitter as your SIL does.

Have you actually done any of the basic checks that people do for this childminder/nanny in sole care of your baby

• criminal background check?
• insurance?
• first aid certificate
• childcare qualifications

Childminders must work from their home that is registered with OFSTED.If she is working in your home as a nanny you would be open to a prosecution for evading your responsibilities as a nanny employer to organise payroll and ensure that tax and NI are paid.

What happens if your child or nanny are injured in your home? Are you covered on your insurance if you are not employing her legally?

If your nanny was properly registered with OFSTED then you could apply for tax free childcare where the government tops up your payments with up to 20%.

OP, thanks for clarifying in response to my questions.

I agree with NannyNick and Lunde (excellent advice from those two contributors) that you need to treat this as a nanny share, but you must take responsibility as employers, giving the woman full employment rights, payroll and tax/NI payments.

Failure to do do will leave you liable for breaking employment law and tax fraud, the consequences of which are far from pretty.

Better still if she could register as a nanny , to access to government help with fees.

Yes sounds likes a nanny

She is at yours £12ph. Is this nett or gross

Always discuss gross

Will you then be paying her a pension and employed ni

At sil she will be doing a nanny share

She isn’t a cm as not at her house

To have £20ph for 3 kids is over the top

She is trying to do cm rates as charges sil per child

Do nannys get maternity pay? A friend employed an assistant who became eligble for maternity pay after 6 months had to pay her and cover wages for a year took HMRC's another 9 months to repay it

Yes anyone employed gets smp
Anyone se is entitled to ma

Always use a registered childminder or Nanny. Ash to see her qualifications on childcare and registration.

Hi,
Even qualified nannies have to register to be childminders if that is what they want to do.
When I first began minding if you were not registered and were caught you and the parents each faced a £1000 fine. Nowadays it is 10k each.
However she sounds definitely like a nanny. No idea how much they charge but they can register with Ofsted and the employers ie you and SIL are responsible for national insurance, tax etc.

This lady def isn’t a cm if looking after children in someone else’s house

What you're describing is not a CM but a nanny share. I was shocked when you said £12/hr for a CM. I pay mine £3/hr per child! For a nanny though, £12/hr is reasonable. However, like others have said there are a whole host of issues to consider. You could try using an umbrella company like Nannytax.co.uk - they do all the paperwork for you and keep things right with HMRC. They also have sample contracts you can use. I wouldn't get into this arrangement without a contract or making sure it's all above-board taxwise. Even if SIL will be offended, that's her problem!

Don't forget that as an employer you also need to pay into a pension for a nanny too. Second the recommendation of a site like nannytax