Rules?

[Twogirlsonelabrador]

Is it legal/ok/fine or not to leave a child in a buggy, completely unattended outside a school (obviously within the school grounds) to go in and collect 2 -3 other children from various classes...meaning the child in the buggy outside will be alone (i.e. not in anyones care but surrounded by passing parents) for 5-10 minutes? Would like to know the legal position on this before I think about raising a complaint.

No children need to be in sight or hearing.

Can't understand why they couldn't push the buggy? A childminder near me has left her mindees in the car while she's gone into school to drop her daughter off. That's terrible as well.

Definitely not, they have to be in sight or hearing at all times, preferably both (can't remember the exact wording)

I actually think it’s poor of the school, why do you have to go inside to collect?

The childminders needs to talk to the school and arrange for her mindees to be rounded up by a staff member and sent out through the reception. That is how the childminders do it at our local school. It is totally unacceptable to leave a child unsupervised outside for 10 minutes and the childminders is in breach of safeguarding. You can report the childminders to Ofsted for this. At the very least you could mention to the school that a child is being left unsupervised.

Why the school? They aren’t her boss, talk to the childminder.

Defininitly not ok. Children need to be within sight or hearing at all times. So could maybe be ok for a couple of minutes if she went just inside the door and collected children from there and could always see the buggy (although it wouldn’t be best practice), but not for 5-10 minutes going into the school to round up children.

I have to walk all the way round the school to get my tribe, it takes ages and I’m pretty much always the last one back through the gates. I can’t imagine the school offering to do the rounding up for me though.

What do other parents do with their buggy’s? Is it the done thing that buggy’s are left outside or has the cm been doing this forever and forgotten that times change and things move on? (Which doesn’t make it right, I’m trying to understand why the cm is doing it).

Our school doesn't allow buggies inside but you have to go into the reception and nursery classes by one door and out another. Its taken an argument with the school and threats of working together and Ofsted for them to allow me to break the rule and wait to the end and have the children brought out. I have none of my own at the school but I know that there is worry that it maybe taken out on children if others ask.
It is against the regulations children must be in sight or hearing and usually both.

Jannier, what happens if parents have babies in buggies? What do the school expect them to do? (I think it’s a ridiculous rule btw and one you shouldn’t have had to fight with them to get a solution for).

The school work like many schools only the child in that class is the priority their answer is to carry baby in or get someone to watch them neither of which I will do even if they were my children but legally I'm not allowed anymore than the school could hand me some of their class and say watch them.
I explained situation to all parents and that they may get calls saying children late being collected along with my request and then stood by classroom door saying bring x to me

Thanks for the advice everyone. So basically MOST parents leave their BUGGY outside and carry their baby/toddler in. It is only the infants where you have to go to the classroom (the juniors come out to the yard). When I collected my eldest I would just park the buggy up, and carry my baby in...there are a few rebels (good on them) that push their buggies in regardless. I think with this particular childminder its because she has a double (wide) buggy which would be a nightmare to get through the corridor even if it was permitted.

I actually flagged this up to the head as I thought basically it would reflect really bad on the school that they were allowing this and she said she would have a word and ask her to leave the buggy (and 2 x toddlers in it) near the caretaker on the way in. Well two things - firstly those children are still not in her care in that case are they and secondly as a parent I wouldnt be at all happy about it! Id be paying her not the school caretaker to mind them. Regardless of them speaking to her she is still leaving them outside and yesterday a different childminder did the same!! Its one of those situations that just doesnt sit well with me and if anything did ever happen I would feel so guilty.

I know one of the mums whose child is being left outside....but feel really awkward about mentioning it as she might already know and be fine with it!
Any further advice greatly appreciated! Thanks

A registered childminder should not be doing this.

I do feel the school is putting her in an impossible situation without reason: plenty of schools hand over to parents and carers in the yard. It is also very inconsiderate to mums too, especially if one is pregnant or has impaired mobility and still has to carry siblings around in her arms.

Your CM needs to come to a different arrangement with the school. They are duty bound to try and accommodate her, as regulations require them to work in partnership with other educational settings. However, schools tend to consider themselves a law unto themselves and may well prevaricate and wriggle out of this responsibility.

In which case, she will have to decide whether she cares for under 5s only, or does schoolchildren only, as she clearly cannot do both without breaching the regulations. Again, it’s very poor of the school as they are denying parents the opportunity to enjoy continuity of care with one consistent childminder throughout their childhood years. I for on every wouldn’t blame her if she dropped the schoolchildren and left the head with a potential attendance problem...... it’s about the only thing schools care about.

Whichever she decides to do, she would be within her rights to give immediate notice, as she has been put in this situation by the school. Either way, it’s very sad if parents lose out because of institutional intransigence over ridiculous school rules.

so you literally think it is the school fault? that she doesnt take her kids out of the buggy (theyre not asleep) and walk them in? they are both about 2 - 2.5? How is this the schools problem? Buggies drag in leaves, dirt etc - I am more than happy that the school doesnt advocate the use of buggies inside as we have a couple of very disabled children who are in a wheelchair and with 2 carers, them coming towards a double buggy, wouldnt be able to pass by. Im surprised that you think it is somehows the schools problem. My basic comment was should a childminder let their kids out of sight? Legally?

You’ve had that answered by lots of people.

I agree I think the school are making things unnecessarily difficult and should rethink their dismissal procedure.

There is no need to drag in leaves, buggies, dirt, etc because there is no need to drag in the parents and carers. Face it, there'll already be plenty of leaves and worse brought in to trouble the caretaker by hundreds of pairs of feet tramping the corridors.

I’ve known plenty of bonkers school rules, including some concerning pick ups, but this seems like madness. Why not handover outside? Do they worry that a teacher might dissolve if it’s raining?

THis raises other, more serious questions. Even a smallish school has 200+ students. That means about 300+ adults/siblings coming along to collect. Assuming they take safeguarding as seriously as our quiet little village school, that’s 300+ people who have to be IDed, signed in, issued with a building pass, then signed out again. How long will that take? Or are there simply no controls on who can access the building?

Has the head risk assessed the consequences of over-occupying the building with hundreds of people who have no idea how to evacuate in an emergency? Is the building certificated for this by the fire and rescue service?

As pp says it is the school being difficult and they should not allow anyone in the school it blocks exits for all and allows non dbs adults access to children most schools bring children to doors and dismiss from the playground or external doors the children should all be able to self dress and bring own items with them.
Not all children are able to get up and walk and some are still tiered from afternoon naps they are warm and cosy in their buggy so getting them out which takes a few minutes mean they get wet and cold when there is no need if the school actually thought about the issues than carried on with a ridiculous policy.

I have 2 or sometimes 3 under twos and have a similar situation where we are supposed to leave the buggy outside and go in one door and out another. I can't get the buggy in or carry multiple children. I have to be difficult and go back out the in door against the flow of parents to keep the buggy in sight.

I must admit, I’m more than a little confused about the OP's position on this matter.

It seems a little contradictory in some respects. In one post she seems to approve of "... a few rebels (good on them) who push their buggies in regardless." But she takes entirely the opposite view in her most recent post.

Think its lost the point of why I posted in the child minders forum really and not in one about schools or their procedures. To clarify my position on the school asking people to come in to collect from the classroom I dont have a prob with it as we get to see our kids in their classroom and speak with their teacher. They are only passed to known parents so I dont have any concerns about strangers wandering about the halls! I said good on them to people that come in with buggies as I wouldnt be brave enough to do it, but I can also see why the school try to discourage it. So hope that clarifies things, however the whys and wherefores are all irrelevant - my post was about whether or not a childminder should leave their charges anywhere they cant see them - i.e. in a car, outside a school, with someone else etc - and thats been answered so thank you.

Is this an Ofsted registered childminder?

Is she looking after your child?

Is your child one of those in the buggy, or is she collecting your child from the school?

(This will determine what to consider and what steps ought to be taken next.)

Twogirlsonelabrador - just because its other parents inside the school does not mean they are suitable parents to be wondering around and possibly in close contact with children or that they are only parents with permission and not ones who have orders against them. Even people up to no good can be parents.
If the corridors are crowded and there is an emergency it impedes evacuation or a child mislays their adult they could wonder out of school and down the road.
You can talk to teachers outside the building and see work on open days.

Unfortunately some parents and child-minders are too scared to stand up to silly rules or suggest changes as they feel children will be victimised by the school. So they are put in impossible positions for no good reason.

Are you 100% sure that the cm can not see the children?

Is this an Ofsted registered childminder? Yes I think so

Is she looking after your child? No

Is your child one of those in the buggy, or is she collecting your child from the school? No, but I know the parent of one of them

The other post seems very ridiculous. If that is the case then surely all school sports days, christmas shows etc should be cancelled as they allow people into the vicinity of children! The school is one of the best in the city and rated outstanding by ofsted so I am sure they are perfectly within their rights to do as they are, and I am fine with that, that wasnt what the post was about at all, just giving the reason why she is leaving them outside - I just wanted to know what the rules were legally in terms of keeping them in sight, and no she definitely cant seen them, unless she can see through stone walls!

Thank you for replying.

To reiterate, as an Ofsted registered childcare provider she should not be doing this. To be entirely accurate (hope this isn’t splitting hairs) she in breach of the EYFS regulations, rather than it being strictly "illegal".

You could complain directly to Ofsted. As you don’t have a child in her care, it’s not certain how they’d respond. They are likely to either get their compliance team to 'phone her, or else log it as a question to ask at her next routine inspection.

It might be best to inform the parent of the child concerned, since you know them. Perhaps the complaint would be better coming from them. The normal procedure would then be for the parent to discuss the matter with the CM in an attempt to reach a suitable arrangement. Failing that, the parent would use the CM's published complaints procedure, and then escalate that complaint to Ofsted if the CM still didn’t provide a satisfactory resolution. Ofsted will rarely do much unless and until the childcare provider's own complaints procedure has been exhausted (unless there is actual abuse taking place or a serious and immediate risk of harm.)

Do bear in mind the possible consequences. The CM may well decide that she cannot fulfil the regulatory requirements whilst continuing to work with this school and younger children. The result of that will be some families suddenly being left without childcare, or losing the continuity of having the same childminder throughout their childrens' preschool and school years. That’s a really big impact and would affect the parent you know personally. There’s no way of telling whether any of the families affected by these changes would thank you for it.

Other comments made about the school are valid and relevant to the situation, even if not directly relevant to your question. They do have a duty to enable other education/childcare providers to support children , and should be working with them in partnership, not putting obstacles in their way. Without going into too much detail on your pp, the issue of controlled access to the school is just as much a safeguarding issue as a caretaker being left to watch a buggy. Events on a sports field or school hall are somewhat different from having adults all over the entire building, and would be covered by an entirely different risk assessment.

sports days are outside, shows are in one hall with controlled access, Ofsted wouldn't necessarily know the arrangements for dismissal. The grading is irrelevant the school has a duty to work with other settings not obstruct them.
You seem very protective of the school and closed to suggested solutions which you could put forward to the parent/cm/school if you noticed a problem. Is this more about fixing a possible danger or reporting a childminder? The outcome of a complaint would be for the cm to risk assess and propose a solution and then to action it why not bypass that give her the chance to improve and then if things don't change do more? Or is there an after school club lurking in the setting up process? sometimes schools make it difficult to increase their business.

I can only agree with Jannier.

The OP seems very eager to find cause for a complaint against the CM, regardless of the consequences for the families she is helping, rather than seek a solution. Holding a CM to account is one thing, but it doesn’t add up when it lacks any sense of holding the school to account too.

You can’t help wondering what the motivation or hidden agenda might be. It certainly doesn’t look like altruism nor child welfare.