Termination of contract

[Amanda1228]

Hi there, I’m new to this site so hope some of you can help me.

I currently have a contract with a childminder for my 4 year old daughter. When I started with this woman it was the first time she had ever been a childminder but had all the correct registration and certificates etc. But had worked in a school for a number of years so I thought great, this woman knows what she’s doing. Not to mention she had 3 kids of her own, lovely home etc.

However, I don’t feel the care which my daughter receives is what I was promised and to be honest I’m paying well over he odds for substandard care.
Firstly, she promised a healthy and well balanced diet - my daughter had had Frosties 80% just about every morning she has had her.
My daughter gets dragged along to pick up 2 kids from their home after I drop her off and to drop the childminders own child off at school every day (I know only about the own child when I signed the contract), also to pick them back up from school and drop the other kids at home at night also.
I pay for the childminder whilst my daughter is in school Nursery for 3 hours a day (I’m not sure why as obviously she isn’t in her care but apparently this is he norm?).
Whenever I’m online I see that the childminder is nearly always active on a watsapp while my daughter is in her care.
I was promised days out, baking, painting etc. But I frequently see ‘free play’ on her text she sends me at the end of the day stating what my daughter had been doing for the day. I’ll ask her what she’s been doing and she says watching tv.
The childminders son has frequent hospital appointments (maybe twice a month?) which my daughter also has to be taken along to (which I never knew would happen when signing contract).
The childminder then text me not long ago saying she wouldn’t be doing a ‘daily diary’ anymore as it takes up too much of her time - surely this is a statutory requirement? (Please note - this ‘daily diary’ is a text at the end of the day saying what my daughter has been doing - not what I would call a daily diary).
Finally, due to working away sometimes for my job I booked a week off meaning I did not require childcare (3 months in advance) and I was still charged - being told “I can take holidays where you don’t pay me, you can’t”.

I told her I would no longer be requiring her and would give 28 days notice. However, do you think this is fair grounds to terminate the contract with immediate effect and not have to pay for the 28 days? I don’t want my daughter there where I know she isn’t getting the care I was promised and to be honest which I expect from a childcare provider.

Thank you for listening.

She's not required to do a daily diary.
You are required to fulfil the contract terms you signed, 28 days notice.
None of the things you're unhappy with will form part of your contract and you'll find many chm may do the same.
Re hold, that will be in your contract.

Having used a few different childminders over the years, you will find that things like the school runs you mention are the norm. Paying for the space at nursery is also the norm, but surely this was all explained to you when you signed up with her?

In all honesty, I think instead of terminating the contract you should be speaking with the childminder and voicing your concerns about things like breakfast, what activities she's doing etc. Like I said, a lot of things you're not happy about you will probably encounter at other childminders and you need to be able to speak to them about it.

Childminders do not provide a pay as you go service. You hold the spot and you pay for it, whether you book a week off or if the child is in nursery for three hours.

Re school pick ups and other children, again, very normal. Daily diary isn't normal. Free play is actually incredibly important, adult led play is not.

If you don't want her to have frosties for breakfast, just say so. It doesn't have to be a big deal.

To be honest, you sound like you are expecting your childminder to be your own private nanny, and that you don't value her services. A childminder is not your employer, she is self employed, running a childcare business and she provides a homely setting within her family unit. You should absolutely stick to the notice period. It's not the childminders faults that your expectations are off and you haven't talked your concerns through with her or given her the chance to make changes in accordance with your wishes.

It sounds like having a childminder isnt for you. It is designed to provide a home from home environment. It sounds fine to me but if you are not happy then terminate but unless there is a nursery with a space or wrap around you might be stuck.

You can terminate the contract with notice for any reason.
However, as PP have said, a lot of what you describe is normal.
Its standard to pay when on holiday and when child is at nursery. This is because childminders can't easily pick up other work to fill these times.
Going along on the school run and to occasional appointments is also normal. A childminder provides a "home like" environment and these experiences are part of a normal "home like" routine. Also-I wouldn't underestimate how interesting and stimulating these seemingly mundane experiences are to a small child.
That leaves the daily diary, the range of activities and the food. I think you should discuss these with your child minder and see what she says.

She doesn't sounds great, but you do either have to give or pay her the 28 days notice.

Next time, choose an experienced childminder with good references, who meets up with other childminder in the day time so they can do activities together snd share the load. I always preferred childminders whose own children were older or grown up so that the mindees got more attention. Ours always did a written diary.

I think you'd be much happier with a nursery. It's a much better environment for a child - no TV, so many activities, well-balanced diet.

Thanks for the feedback all - I see everyone seems to think this is an acceptable way for kids to be brought up? I’m astounded! I only used literally 1% of the examples of things which have happened and I suppose some people have clung to them. But woah, I can’t believe this is what childcare in the U.K. in 2018 is and everyone is okay with that. Each to their own I suppose!

Thanks for commenting

@BooMare you ought make it clear that what you said is just your opinion.

On the contrary I found all the nurseries I looked at very sad and limp.

The only things in your list which I would have trouble with is the frosties for breakfast most days, lots of watching TV (if it is lots) and accompanying her child to hospital appointments, but tbh the latter point I wouldn't be so concerned about as say a one off.

I've recently trained as a childminder and will be starting after mat leave and everything else you mention is standard. If you're going to be looking for another childminder you will find the same "issues" with them too. All childminders will look after multiple children so it's not just your child's needs they are thinking about, so there will be other pick ups and drop offs. You should look at your contract re payment but it's standard to pay a childminder unless they are going on holiday/off sick (and even then some still charge, but it depends on their t&cs). Diaries are not a statutory requirement, they are a gesture. The requirement is that they meet the early years framework and they must do observations to demonstrate this. Depending on how long she's been there you could ask to see the observations and development plans - these are things that Ofsted will spot check her on when they do their visit.

It's hard when we have certain expectations surrounding our children and I mean this with kindness, but honestly I think you're going to come across much of this elsewhere. There is of course nothing stopping you from taking your dd out but you do need to pay the notice period and she would have ample grounds to take you to a small claims court if you didn't. Personally given that the actual issues are so minor I would also just have a chat with her.

Agree that she sounds less than great but none of these issues are her breaking the contract, which is the only thing that would justify your not paying her. I would find someone else. The school run is normal and necessary. Some childminders can provide the 15 hours themselves. Alternatively find one who'll do nursery pick up and have your daughter afternoon only. Or have two full days at nursery and just have a childminder for three. Agree that you need to not be paying for these hours.

I agree with others that the school run and dropping other kids etc. is the norm.

However, DD used to go to a childminder who kept the children busy and as far as I'm aware didn't put them in front of the TV very often at all. She took them to toddler groups, to the local woods, to the station to watch the trains and lots of playing in the garden and trips to the park. There was also free play in the house.

She filled in a little notebook each day with a very brief note of the activities.

I too would have been disappointed if the TV was regularly used as entertainment.

I was really disappointed to end things with our childminder (because DD (15m) never fully settled) as I was really happy with the way she kept the children entertained.

That being said you absolutely should expect to give the 4 weeks notice properly.

Jjemimapuddleduck great input, much appreciated. Sorry I expect my child to do more than watch tv and go on school runs for the £1200 I pay every month! I’m such a dick your right . And I was recommended this page by a friend and told it was a great place for asking questions like this - you really let the rest of the group down and it’s people like you who probably give people a lot of issues and are the reason people don’t ask genuine questions. Shame on you.

Also, with regards to tv, how much? I often put it on while I am preparing lunch.

And I don't understand why you are shocked that this is childcare in 2018? Please could you elaborate? What exactly are you hoping for in terms of your daughters care whilst away from you?

You have to give the notice op, you signed the contract.
I had a childminder who I chose out of desperation when my original childminder retired, she promised the earth - daily outings, adventures etc, and pretty much sat in every day with my dd, and did lots of school runs and medical appointments.
Having had a CM previously I expected a lovely home from home experience, with all that entails, but the new CM was a "keep them alive and fed" type service. I gave the required notice but didn't send dd, I double paid a few weeks for her to go to nursery instead, where she was much, much happier.

I wouldn’t find any of that acceptable no, and that wasn’t the offer from any of the childminders I viewed. Some would charge for part time nursery as they couldn’t cover the place and I don’t mind 20 minutes of CBeebies here and there. All of the childminders I’ve seen had a broad routines of the kinds of things they would do which they stuck to it (NB this would include free play as well as other activities). I’ve seen everything from a verbal update to on online form splitting out EYFS progress in terms of comms. Most of the food was better than I produce myself when I’m working (!)and it’s all homemade.

I think the point is there are lots of ways in which childminders run their businesses. There’ll be a good match for you somewhere although it’s hard - location, price whether they have spaces etc.

If you can afford to take the hit I’d pull her out immediately (not because it’s a breach of contract) but because the trust has gone - she isn’t delivering what you agreed and what she is offering is not what you want for your child.

If the CM isn't doing what she told you she'd be doing then you are right to feel disappointed. Whether that's what is/can be the norm is not really the point. But - what you need to do is serve proper notice ie pay for the notice period. Whether you send your daughter during that time is for you to decide - clearly depends whether you go down the "sorry but we think we're going to look at different options" or the "I think you're dreadful" lines. Some of the popular nurseries can have long waiting lists so you'll want to make sure you've got something lined up.

I’d say most of the OP's points of contention are, in fact, well within the bounds of 'normal' within childcare. And without wishing to get into the futile nursery-versus-childminder debate, that goes for both types of care.

There are some things mentioned that, ok, are a bit disappointing, but I don’t see anything worthy of withholding payment for the notice period.

We also have to bear in mind this is only one side of the story, and a heavily skewed view at that. You may choose to use language like "dragged along....... to school"; another parent might be delighted their child gets some time out of the house during the day.

No, I don’t thing Frosties and tv are ideal. But neither are they a sign of "substandard care". If that were true then a lot of mums would be getting a call from social services.

Free play or 'activities' come down to personal philosophy and choice. There is a huge debate over this. In just the last decade there has been a shift towards more adult-led 'activities', but many fear this is a political thing aimed at 'dumbed down' children, used to dull regimentation and institutionalised ready for state schooling. Personally I would opt for any childcare provider who still has sufficient faith in children to favour 'free play'.

As for paying well over the odds, how much exactly are you paying? For the record, how much do you think the care of your daughter should be worth?

As mentioned previously, it doesn’t sound like a CM is for you. Perhaps a Nanny, because you then employ them directly and can dictate terms of employment. That’s if they accept, and you’re prepared to pay the going rate plus all the responsibilities of an employer: tax, NI, holiday pay, sick pay, maternity leave, etc.

If DD already goes to nursery, I’m curious as to why you don’t simply send her there full time if you don’t get on with the CM?

Above all, whatever form of childcare you choose, you need to communicate a lot better. Be absolutely clear about your expectations and how the setting works. I suspect your options could be far more limited than you may think, if you can indeed find anywhere that meets your expectations in full.

Paying while off - normal as you pay for space not usage. As does a nursery.
Paying for nursery time -common as above and you need the space kept for school closures.
School runs - normal how many she takes is irrelevant or whether they come to her home or collected on route - school runs are great chances to do learning and to understand school they do not just have to be a mad nagging rush.
TV not normal - you could discuss it.
Food - discuss it.
Diary - no requirement does she verbally update you - discuss it.
Want more activities - discuss it.
Free play may well be educational depending on what activities are there and adult role - most nurseries including school ones are largely free play but set out to support next steps as learning is through play and following individual interests - discuss it.
Notice - normal and unless your child has been endangered or cm has repeatedly been unavailable totally reasonable.

Why cant you talk to her? All childcare should be a working partnership if a parent isn't happy or unsure you discuss it just the same as with any service. Ask her how she manages things like school runs/ appointments how often what your lo gest from it etc.

I think you need to give the notice and pay as she probably hasn't breached contract.

However, I do think you are right to complain about the service you were provided. Frosties are full of sugar and there are better alternatives. Writing daily diary is not regulation but ofsted would not be happy with no learning journeys/observations.
Free play is indeed as important as adult led, but shouldn't include tv as this is not "play". Free play should also be observed.
Do not agree with comment about childminders without their own young child being a preferential choice. I want my little one to have fun filled, creative days and the mindees get that too!
Not all of us provide a bad service, even us newbies! It sounds as if she doesn't like her job much

Also I am all for childcare providers standing up for each other when parents are disrespectful/trying to argue against contracts/being unreasonable, but we shouldn't support bad practice as it brings us all down!

I personally don't use tv other than when a child arrives at 7am and I'm setting up (9 year old who doesn't get put to bed before 10pm) or occasionally if we've had a trip out and the older ones are worn out. But many nurseries and cms use it for odd times like setting up and clearing away meals/ cooking meals/ children who cant sleep unless noise is on (many parents let children go to bed with tv on) so I would be asking how much its on and why.
I don't have any young children of my own now but we do lots of activities - typically a set up is messy play area (sand/gloop/playdo) painting area, drawing/mark making, home corner (has porridge oats in at the moment for scooping and filling, sometimes water sometimes real veg. Dress up, book area, self choosing toys from my 7 by 6 ft shelving unit for construction, small world, threading, etc. We have free flow and set up with same things inside and out. On a daily basis we go out to groups and socialise. The children take part in group activities and are happy to talk in large groups. On school runs we play hunt the shape hunt the number hunt the letter and road safety games like stop and go. As well as becoming familiar with the school and routine. We take pictures of what interest each child that day on our route that is used in messy play under sand, sticking, puzzels and more to support their individual learning but via free play. You do ot need to have an under 5 of your own to do this....but it is free play.
Having a daily diary is not compulsory, observations and meeting next steps are but do not have to be written, a learning journey is good practice but not a must in the EYFS but you do have to demonstrate how you know where a child is, how you work with parents (can be whatsapp or verbal) and how you work with other settings.

As a childminder I have to agree with op. Yes daily diary should be done. It takes 5 minutes. School runs though are often the norm. As for free play/activities I do a morning activity (play group, arts and crafts, phonics etc) then in the afternoon free play. The TV only goes on when I am making lunch. I think your childminder should be doing more. Your paying for an educator. We are rated by Ofsted the same as a nursery and should be doing what nurseries do just on a smaller basis

Sorry you're not having a positive result from your CM experience Amanda1228 I really wouldn't like to be in your dilemma.
I have 4 daughters who have all returned to work and have had a full spectrum of experiences. One has the Mary Poppins of childminders which is due to come to an end shortly as she is on Ivf treatment which means she is becoming unreliable. One daughter I looked after her daughter whilst she was in uni. She then went onto a private nursery where she learned nothing and it transpired a boy in the class had my granddaughter and her 2 friends take their pants and tights off so he could inspect and touch and put them back on but keep It a secret. One of the nursery nurses had favourites and treat the rest horribly. 'Nana' was seen to be overreacting when she kicked up a fuss. Not that leaving a room full of 3/4s unattended so that could happen is anything to worry about without any of the other breaches.
Another granddaughter we looked after jointly with her paternal grandma and then she went to a first class private nursery. She now has a lazy childminder who earns roughly £22.50 to £28/hr, does very little and more or less runs the little commodities around her life. She also has a 28 day clause for termination of contract.
The other daughter has private nursery and if gd has the slightest sniffle it's a call to mummy and daddy and one has to take the day off work as a holiday and still pay childcare.
What was interesting reading elsewhere is less than 50% of paid for childcare, be it CM or nursery is good, to excellent. Which equates to more than 50% of children and parents are getting a crap deal. Would any other sector be allowed to have such poor standards ?