Termination of contract

[Amanda1228]

Hi there, I’m new to this site so hope some of you can help me.

I currently have a contract with a childminder for my 4 year old daughter. When I started with this woman it was the first time she had ever been a childminder but had all the correct registration and certificates etc. But had worked in a school for a number of years so I thought great, this woman knows what she’s doing. Not to mention she had 3 kids of her own, lovely home etc.

However, I don’t feel the care which my daughter receives is what I was promised and to be honest I’m paying well over he odds for substandard care.
Firstly, she promised a healthy and well balanced diet - my daughter had had Frosties 80% just about every morning she has had her.
My daughter gets dragged along to pick up 2 kids from their home after I drop her off and to drop the childminders own child off at school every day (I know only about the own child when I signed the contract), also to pick them back up from school and drop the other kids at home at night also.
I pay for the childminder whilst my daughter is in school Nursery for 3 hours a day (I’m not sure why as obviously she isn’t in her care but apparently this is he norm?).
Whenever I’m online I see that the childminder is nearly always active on a watsapp while my daughter is in her care.
I was promised days out, baking, painting etc. But I frequently see ‘free play’ on her text she sends me at the end of the day stating what my daughter had been doing for the day. I’ll ask her what she’s been doing and she says watching tv.
The childminders son has frequent hospital appointments (maybe twice a month?) which my daughter also has to be taken along to (which I never knew would happen when signing contract).
The childminder then text me not long ago saying she wouldn’t be doing a ‘daily diary’ anymore as it takes up too much of her time - surely this is a statutory requirement? (Please note - this ‘daily diary’ is a text at the end of the day saying what my daughter has been doing - not what I would call a daily diary).
Finally, due to working away sometimes for my job I booked a week off meaning I did not require childcare (3 months in advance) and I was still charged - being told “I can take holidays where you don’t pay me, you can’t”.

I told her I would no longer be requiring her and would give 28 days notice. However, do you think this is fair grounds to terminate the contract with immediate effect and not have to pay for the 28 days? I don’t want my daughter there where I know she isn’t getting the care I was promised and to be honest which I expect from a childcare provider.

Thank you for listening.

@trevthecat

I agree that CMs should not defend poor standards, but please remember we only have the OP's very one-sided view; her CM has no way of replying to the things of which she is being accused.

I disagree that CMs have to become mini nurseries. The nursery model is not the only way for children to learn. Many parents choose CMs precisely because they are not nurseries.

Diaries are not a requirement. Nor do all parents even want or expect them. The whole idea of them doesn’t even occur to many mums unless/until the childcare provider mentions the subject.

I don’t want this to become yet another CM versus nursery debate, but you can take a look at the Nurseries board, thread 'Nursery - end of session handover/chat' if you think they always do good information.

A nursery worker I know complained to her manager that she had to waste time on diaries when she could be with the children; this left the room illegally above the adult-child ratio for an hour each day, and she was expected to complete diaries for children she didn’t even deal with. She was told instead to do the diaries during a quiet part of the morning, which meant noting lunches that hadn yet to be cooked, and afternoon activities, snacks, nappies, etc before the morning was out: in other words, it was all made up. She gave up nursery work and is now CM.

This week there is the ridiculous situation where the dd childminder can not offer the CM my GD needs as mummy has to go away to work so she has had to travel several hundred miles to drop her off with me,. I am watching GD whilst CM is being paid .

I liked CM because she did provide a home environment and was happy for DDs to chill out after pre-school, watch a bit of TV, and be with the CM on some errands. However I was always pleasantly surprised about how many activities they did manage to do nonetheless, and I never felt that they were just being fitted in around the CM's life even if they did go with her to Sainsbury's sometimes- the mindees were the absolute priority while CM was working. Also in school holidays it was a different story and they would have several trips out and do absolutely loads - much more than I would have done with them at home!

DDs are older now and remember the time fondly, I really think it was an ideal environment for them and better than any of the nurseries available locally.

I,m confused BayHorseNana Fri 28-Sep-18 12:34:17

"This week there is the ridiculous situation where the dd childminder can not offer the CM my GD needs as mummy has to go away to work so she has had to travel several hundred miles to drop her off with me,. I am watching GD whilst CM is being paid ."
What do you mean that the cm is open but refusing care or that because your daughter is away working and cant get your GD to the cm it is ridiculous that she still has to pay??????

BayHorseNana "She now has a lazy childminder who earns roughly £22.50 to £28/hr, does very little and more or less runs the little commodities around her life. She also has a 28 day clause for termination of contract"
A childminder may receive £22.50 to £28 an hour if full (most would receive about £15) but that is not what they earn even if full they have to pay out a lot more than you do as a grandparent and have to do a lot more work outside the hours spent with children typically a full childminder struggles to earn minimum wage if they have a child of their own. Then most childminders are not full every working hour as most parents now return part time add to that the fact funding (free childcare for 3 year olds) is less than the normal rate for childcare ....why do you think she earns so much and what makes her lazy?

Firstly the breakfast issue. I would mention it to your childminder. Is breakfast included or charged for? I'm a childminder and wouldn't be giving such a sugary breakfast, that said I did have a parent who insisted their daughter would only eat coco pops so they provided. I only offer breakfast if arriving very early. Could you give before you leave home perhaps?
The school run is a normal part of a childminders routine wether for her own children or mindees, none of mine are dragged along though, they walk nicely or go in pushchair talking about what we see on the way also educational and learning road safety. I agree with other posts that tv is ok in moderation ie, breakfast time, nap/quiet time.
You are right to be bothered if she's not providing activities though. We spend most mornings out doing forest school, playgroup, parks etc socialising with other childminders and then at home for play dough, wet play, stories, counting, letters singing painting, glueing etc, oh and free play (valuable) and a lot of the above included in that.
Daily diary and learning journals are not obligatory and a lot of childcarers feel they take up time they could be spendi g with the little ones. I do the journals to be taken home every now and then but do not have time to fill in diarys every day for 3 or 4 children, only if still babies to show feed/nappies etc. I prefer to use Whatsapp, regularly message each parent photos of what we've done and telling them how their children are.
Charging while in nursery also normal, how can she fill a 3 hr slot and wouldn't you need her days preschool closed?
Holidays yours, again she can't fill your space during holiday so she loses, do you pay for her holiday?
If you have a contract though you would need to abide by notice period financially.

BayhorseNana
Yes why do you call her lazy?
You don't seem to have much faith in any other care provider but yourself.
And agree with Jannier.
Some days I earn £8 per hr total. On a good day £15 I feed the children out of that, take them out, petrol, entrance to playcentres, toddler groups, monthly memberships to farms, zoos. I have to pay to be Ofsted registered, data protection, public liability. I attend courses on a Saturday, which I pay for in my own time or in evening. Update toys and supplies, paint, glue,paper etc. I spent weekends on portal setting up 3yr funding so parents can get FREE childcare whilst me making a loss on what I usually charge.

This week there is the ridiculous situation where the dd childminder can not offer the CM my GD needs as mummy has to go away to work so she has had to travel several hundred miles to drop her off with me,. I am watching GD whilst CM is being paid

I assume you mean that your DD needs the CM to do extended hours, perhaps overnight or weekends or work later in the evening so your GD father can collect her? The CM is self employed, she is entitled to choose when she works and your dd has entered into a contract for that. It sounds as though your DD needs a nanny not a CM. Apologies if I am wrong but I can't see any other explanation.

OP- everyone will have a difference of opinion over what a CM/nursery should offer. I agree frosties sound crap but I'm a big advocate for free play. I have a friend whose 3 year old seems to be incapable of playing alone and I think this is largely due to friend creating his play for him all the time.

If you want to terminate the contract you should abide by the t&cs you signed up for unless the CM has done something which is a huge breach of contract.

I suppose only other explanation is that CM is taking holiday, which again she is entitled to take.

Children sometimes exhibit attention-seeking behaviour simply because they don’t understand how the world works in real life. Experienced childcarers know it’s best to stay calm and not reward tantrums with undue attention.

I humbly suggest this might also be a good way to deal with people who jump on threads with their personal episodes of irrelevant foot stamping.

I don’t think it sounds great but I also don’t think it sounds like grounds to not give notice.

If you don’t gel with her and aren’t happy then terminate but there is nothing there that gives you grounds for not paying the notice period.

I left a Cm as I just didn’t get a good vibe from her, it happens.

By the way, how did you expect her own kids to get to and from school?

OP I decided childminders weren’t for me for similar reasons. This isnt a case of breach of contract though. More that you don’t feel she’s that good (I agree frostie, lots of TV and few outings wouldnt be okay with me either) and don’t like some things that are just standard for childminders (pick ups) or childcare in general (paying for your place when you don’t use it). Chalk it up and ask more questions of your next childcare choice.

Welshmaiden85 - out of interest what is it about a school run that you don't like? Not that all childminders do one. I've also been in nurseries who routinely have tv on for an hour and healthy food includes fromage frais with 6 teaspoons of sugar in and food full of salt.

I'm struggling to get my head around the paying for child care when your child is in nursery. I have a child minder 1 day a week but I don't pay for her services for the other 4 days he's not in her care. Genuinely don't understand why you would have to do that 🤔

Live
Some parents want a nursery/preschool but can't pick up or drop off. So use a childminder.
As the Chm won't fill those few hours they usually charge. And would be available if the other setting was closed.

LiveatCityHall - childmidners spaces are limited to a total of 3 under 5 at any one time with a few controlled short term variations). if you book a childminder for every Tuesday she can sell the space Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. As there is a high chance others will want the space. If you want her to collect you child from nursery say at 11.30 she can only sell a space from about 8am to 11 (assuming you don't want a 9am drop to school) what are the chances of a parent wanting a space for 2 hours a day? You have to allow for travelling time to return to her house and to leave to get yours as nobody is likely to meet you at a nursery they don't use. Then you also have to allow for things like who will care for your child if the school is shut.
Why should the childminder loose out and subsidise your choice to use her competition? they provide the same as nursery and can take funding like a nursery so its like saying to Tesco's can you deliver my Sainsbury's shopping when you drop off the items I've ordered from you.

There are ways around it anyway. You can do the fifteen hours as two full days (ie a morning and afternoon session on two days and just pay for lunch, as long as it's a ft open year round nursery) and have a childminder for the other three. Or, quite often round here anyway, you can use the 15 hours at a childminder - they just need to be accredited to the scheme.

28 days notice - normal
Charging while at pre school - normal
Paying while your child is home - normal
School runs - normal
Daily diaries - not statutory

It doesn't sound however like she's providing the care you thought she offered, so yes, you probably do want to give notice.

When you look somewhere else, ask about the type of food provided and activities attended. The childcare you want will be out there somewhere.

If she honestly doesn't do anything with the children, has stopped daily diary (if you can call a text a diary ) and feeds then Frosties everyday then yes she does sound crap. However, school runs are highlight of the day for some of my little ones they absolutely love the routine of walking to school and meeting the bigger children. TV - on certain days I allow tv for 20 mins whilst one of the babies settles for a nap and on another day it goes on after tea (& play and homework) at 5:30 so I can have facilitate calm handovers and give my attention to tired babies. We have free play sessions everyday usually whilst I make lunch and after nap/story time - as other posters have said it's really important for children to develop their own imaginative play not always adult led or even fully educational but we usually have either an outing or a structured activity in the morning and some sort of group activity (singing, stories, nursery rhyme sack etc) in the afternoon. I know one of my 3 year olds has told her mum we just watched tv and played but I write a page a day.

You can either just give notice or work with her address your concerns. Be direct about breakfast - no sweet cereals just porridge/weetabix etc, fruit and toast for example. Ask for a more detailed outline of her day including activities and outings (do you never see photos?), query the amount of drop-offs and pick-up - a twice daily school run I would expect but picking up and dropping off other children I would expect to have been told about up front as that would piss me off as a parent too.
Hope you work it out whatever you decide but please don't judge all cm's as being lazy and greedy as most of us work bloody hard to provide a loving and educational environment for the children for very little reward.

@Amanda1228

Re: paying your CM whilst your daughter is in nursery 3 hours a day.....

1. Who takes and fetches your daughter to/from nursery?

1. Was this arrangement, including payment for those hours, agreed from the start?

1. Why we’re you not using the nursery for all your childcare needs from the outset?

These are not rhetorical questions: I’m genuinely interested in the answers.

i am also a childminder we do activities in the morning as in softplay.park.beach.woods.library then after lunch we have freeplay followed by an activity if needed painting, cooking,playdough, then before the school run we have story time.i do put the tv on sometimes but my mindees arent interested.I dont personally charge when they are at nursery or for a booked holiday but we all run our childminding business different.Is your childminder doing a learning journey?? if she does then what does she put init that your daughter has done.

So it's ok for other children to be 'dragged along' as you put it, whilst childminder takes your daughter to preschool but not for your daughter to go along whilst she collects/drops off other children.
Why would you expect your child to be the only drop off/collection?
Trevthe cat. We aren't nurseries though. And part of the appeal of a childminder is that we are home from home. Daily diaries are not always done in nurseries anyway.
We are more able to tell the parents face to face how day has gone or if someone else collects can always drop text later. Nursery don't have time for a chat so much as they may have 20 to 30 children leaving at once.
We are just as good as nurseries but can offer different experiences like spontaneous trips out and we know the child better s on our own constantly with such a small group.

Thank you for the comments. That's it exactly Nelly. DD has to travel and stay away overnight a few time a year as part of work . Like OP, several hours of nursery time are included in the CM's fee. So this week we have a situation whereby the CM and nursery both receive their fee but the realities are GD has stayed with me for several days.
As for me, I have had to have staff stay extra time and pay because I have been the person who has actually took care of a child.
Why I think the childminder is lazy ? Lazy is probably the wrong word. I'd see her as mercenary. She has several children she drops off and collects during the day. Some are at least 20 mins drive away.By the time I factored in how much time must be spent on the roads on these journeys, and that's if the traffic is moving smoothly, the time GD is in nursery, the actual time spent in house with GD isn't that much.

When I know how much CM is being paid /hr, know how may children she looks after, know her T&C's and how desperate those who seek her services are it doesn't take a mathematical genius to work out how much she is being paid an hour.
As for thinking no CM, or nursery could give the same care as I did, of course not. I cared for them when they were under the weather and didn't send them home. It was mainly 1 to one, or 1 to two dedicated attention. They could stay overnight and it cost the DDs not a penny.

If a CM stated they would only have one more child in their care when you took out the contract and then proceeded to take on another 3, would this b a breach of contract, or would it been down to reading the small print ?