Childminder - pay, holiday & sick leave questions...

[DorsetFreya80]

Hello all,

quick question that we're currently working over - what do people think of the following?

I should add that we have signed a contract - so are on the hook for the below, unless we agree to part our ways (4 weeks notice).

Background:

We have a great childminder, 4 days a week, 1 other little one & ours, OFSTED Outstanding, and currently we are exposed (paying) to the following:

• 25 days holiday a year.
• bank holidays.
• Xmas NY period.
• sick pay (length of undermined).

1. Over the past year i have realised that we have never taken our holidays at the same time - so that's 45-50 days (near enough) we have had to pay for her services when we've not used them.

1. On top of that we pay Bank Holidays - but we don't send her on Monday, so it's not really an issue.

1. Sick days currently at approx 8 for the year - we need to find a solution then, either paying double for cover, or one of us to taking a day off.

1. We are away from Pre-Xmas to post NY, yet we still cover the costs for this period as well.

So... is this the 'norm', or is this a the exception - to be tied in for thee terms?

And yes - we signed (silly), so am not going to break the contact, but rather will start looking for alternatives..

Welcome your advice on this!

Many thanks,

DF.

There is no 'norm', so you will get a variety of answers. I know several CMs who charge for holiday and bank holidays. I don't charge when I'm unavailable, but my hourly rate is higher, so over a year, about the same. Does the Christmas/New Year period just mean the bank holidays (which are already mentioned) or the three days in between as well (making the holidays paid 28 days)? I would charge if a parent is away over Christmas, but not if I'm away.

I don't personally know any CMs who are paid for sickness.

You could ask for a contract review if you are not happy, but you might find your has been advised on contract terms by some of the other local CMs, or your LA, so you might meet the same terms at some other settings.

Can your child attend on Bank Holidays, or during the Christmas period if you want them to?

It may be that your childminder charges a significantly lower fee, or has some other advantage that balances out her holiday and sickness policies.

However, if the contract isn't working well for you, is it worth asking your childminder to renegotiate the contract? You must be due for a contract review if you've been with her for a year.
I'd be horrified if any of my parents felt locked into a contract that wasn't working - she may think everything is fine if you don't tell her.

It sounds like an enormous amount of holiday if that is 25 days taken out of the 4 days/week - plus the 3 days between Xmas and New Year. Is it really that?!

That ends up being a full-time equivalent of 42 days (when the statutory minimum - which a lot of employers give - is 28). When you add the 8 sick days, that makes 50 days off (full time equivalent) - almost twice what most parents will get!

In fact, assuming both parents get the normal amount, and no other childcare, then in order to cover the childminder's days off the parents would need to take almost all their leave separately. They could only have 6 days (including bank holidays) together as a family.

In fact, it's a good thing you're part-time and you have Mondays off, since if you were full time then you wouldn't even be able to do all 8 bank holidays with both of you off - and not all companies allow you to work a bank holiday.

How on earth have you managed it? Are you able to take lots of unpaid time off, or do you have other childcare available to cover it?

One of my friends takes a similar amount of holiday. She specialises in children with autism and other additional needs, and she does a lot of respite care and fostering.

She needs that time off to recharge her batteries. Her parents are fine about it - they're informed up front and they have no problem working around her time off.

The amount of holiday isn't an issue. It's that the Op is finding that the contract isn't working for her. The first step is to talk to the childminder and see if it can be renegotiated.

I agree with strawberry, and I have never heard of sick pay for a childminder.

I charged for 2 weeks holiday, not the other 2 weeks and bank holidays. I didn't get any sick pay, if I didn't work I didn't get paid-I don't think you can pay indefinitely so I would raise that. I did however give out my holiday dates in January so parents could take their hols at the same time.

I'm not sure why you haven't noticed this before, how have you managed to cover those 50 days? Did you not read and discuss the implications of the contract before you signed it?

There is no rule on holiday some take paid holiday others don't with regard to that you would need to calculate your annual cost and then work out if its comparable to others or worth the trade off for quality, satisfaction fro service etc.

Most parents do book time off and holidays to coincide with child-minders even if the child-minder is not paid.

As your already away for Christmas I'm not sure what problem that gives you as its not unusual to pay childcare when your off.

The sick pay is rare in my experience.

I would ask for a contract review saying that there are some things that are causing you difficulty then go with a list of things that you need to discuss bearing in mind what you are happy to compromise on...maximum number of sick days, minimum notice periods for her holidays so you can book your time off to etc. If you wish to continue with her make sure she knows your happy with her care and really want to find an answer that solves your problem.
If you feel you cant work with it then consider your alternatives I guess your 4 weeks notice wont make much difference as there are no holidays booked so it probably the best time if that's what you want to do. Childcare does come to an end and your child-minder will I'm sure continue to behave professionally should you decide a compromise cant be reached.

As they are self employed, they can obviously choose what to put in the contract, and you can choose to use them, or go elsewhere, but, for comparison, I think that's a HUGE amount of holiday, if I've read it right that she's not counting the Christmas period, nor the Bank Holidays in the holiday entitlement?
Presumably, if you attend 4 days a week, it's not going to be all 25 out of your days ? (ie, I'd assume if she goes away for a week then only 4 of those days would affect you).
How much notice does she give for holidays?
Could you not tie your holidays in to be away when she's not available?

Every CM I've used wouldn't charge me if she was sick. They would only charge if the place were available, but my dc were ill / not coming for another reason.

Well, our cm takes 8 weeks holiday a year, but it's unpaid. However, her hourly rate is high so it probably balances out. She's increased her holiday since we first started with her (from 5 weeks to 8) but she gave us lots of warning so we could have bailed if we'd wanted to. As it is, we love her so we made it work...

She doesn't charge for days she has to close though (eg if she or her children are ill). That wouldn't have been something I'd sign up for, I don't think...

thanks for the comments, some of the answers are below.

• we've not used our full entitlement of holidays this past year (husband and i).
• husband can work from home, so in instances he has had to do this.
• the CM has not used hers.
• correct, as 4 days from 5; it is actually 20/25 that we're on the hook for.
• we are always away for Xas / NY so, yes - the 3 days inbetween are counted as 'work' for the CM, and we cover the cost then.
• contract signed as we were in a sticky situation and needed to find a solution ASAP, she is very good - just pricey..!

In 1 week we can review (As agreed) as it's been a year - that mainly why i am asking these questions - so thank you!

One final question - we have no.2... and am currently on Mat Leave - what sort of discount 'might' we expect from sending 2 kids to the same CM?

thanks all!

Some cm offer sibling discounts but many (me included) don't as the sibling is taking a place that frankly I'd rather get full fee from a non-sibling especially if it's a baby as you can only care for 1 under 1. Siblings also pose a greater risk to our income as if you leave it's 2 places to fill instead of just one and of course our expenses don't reduce just because 2 children are related. Not trying to be negative just explain why many CM's don't offer sibling discount .

In your position I would at the very least be looking to review the sick pay situation & ensure you have adequate notice of holidays so you can plan ahead and where possible try & coincide dates.

I've never had a sibling discount, nor would expect one - they are taking up a complete place after all.

As ever with CM contracts, you need to look at the full price over the year

• is everything included or do you have to pay extra for anything?
• some people charge full price for 52 weeks, but their hourly rate is lower than those who may charge holidays at 50% fee

and so forth. Then factor in how good they are at the job

• do they get out and about every day?
• is the food good?
• is the environment stimulating?

and also convenience

• is it near home, or convenient on route to work?
• is the CM always ready when you arrive?
• is she flexible (if you need that)

I'm also really surprised at the sick leave - I know an unexpected accident can happen to everyone, but I've used a few CMs over the years for different dc, and none has ever taken a day off, except one who had an operation for which I had about 2 months notice. IME CMs very, very, very rarely take anytime off sick. (As in, talking to other people, not just the ones I've used)

I've never offered a sibling discount although I know a couple of cms who do.

Ours doesn't offer a sibling discount, and I wouldn't expect one.

If you can make the holidays work and you like the cm then I'd just try to negotiate the sick days. Cms aren't nannies - they are freelance, not your employee. Therefore it's highly irregular to charge for sick days (or days when her kids are sick).

If Monday is not your contracted day then you shouldnt be paying her a penny for BHs that fall on a Monday.

8 days sick is a lot and no, she shouldnt be charging for them.

How far in advance do you know her holidays? My CM gives the years leave in July of the year before (bar a couple of days she keeps back for emergency/last minute byt even they are given with at least 6 weeks notice). Can you have ypur AL the same time as her?

My CM charges for any leave we take, but not for any leave she takes so most of the parents tale leave at the same time to save money.

Of course she should be charging for sick days: it's in the contract that the Op signed.

Makes me cross when I see posts laying down the law about what can and can't be charged. It's up to the individual childminder to charge what he or she feels is reasonable. It's up to each parent to sign up to those charges, to negotiate, or to find another childcarer.

thanks for the comments - agree, it's not about what is currently charged (we've signed up for that), but now i am looking at 'reviewing' and putting forward some proposals for the next year, especially as we will using the CM for No.2.
some more info:

• we never pay for a BH on a Monday as we do not use the CM on Mondays.
• we do get notice about holidays, but it is not possible to take hols at the same time (at least over the past year).
• we pay £64 a day (8am - 5pm).
• we provide lunch and all supplies.

If this flips up to 2 @ £64 - £128 pd x 4 = £512 pw - then we can not continue with this arrangement. Thanks for all your help - you all offer up pretty much what we have been thinking - but am not sure about the sick pay as that will be a big re-negotiation.

Think we will need to look into an alternative solution for when No2 needs cover - unless i drop my days to 3 per week with work.

either that or we move back to Norfolk ;-)

Are you central london? That is incredibly expensive and doesnt even include lunch? What about snacks / tea ? Wipes? Activities?

Be cheaper overall to get a Nanny. At least they would prep meals.

But a Nanny's not cheaper though - you need to cover tax, NI etc with a nanny..

unless i have been looking at wrongly..?

Centralish - Islington.

we provide all food, snacks, wipes, nappies - and they go to nursery groups 3 mornings a week (no charge).

We pay slightly more per hour for our cm (so a 9-6 day is £72). She's also in Islington, but that includes all food, activities, etc. (we provide nappies and wipes). But, as I said, she doesn't charge for her holidays or sick/off days so it balances out over the year...

A nanny might work out cheaper with two DC...?

If you paid a Nanny a wage of 18,000 pa it would work out at £69 a day. And no drop offs and pick ups, no havi g to sort food todrop off.

Can you get a nanny for £18k in London??

With regard to discount it is always worth asking as you have been existing customers who presumably pay on time and don't mess her about she may do something for you. I have done so in the past for existing families especially as one was not far off school age so effectively would free up a full time space soon.

I would discuss the sick pay, she may have started charging as children in the past were brought sick so she caught it and had to close, I have heard of one lady who did this, not sure how it worked out for her. Again as she knows you and presumably you don't bring your child sick she may be willing to drop this part to keep your business. Especially if you are effectively bringing in new business.

So her holiday entitlement is 20 days and she hasn't used it all yet and in effect you haven't paid anybody else as other half has worked from home...what does she do with unused holiday? That means if she uses and charges all 20 days on a 4 day week the equivalent in non paid holidays would be around a 10% price rise...how does that 10% compare against what others charge and how happy you are with her?

What is stopping you booking the same time? Could you discuss the reason and see if she will agree to half the holiday being at the same time as you? I know my husband was self employed so in reality booking holiday was a last minute thing and even then he didn't always go there isn't much I could do about that other than suck it up and pay.

18,000 pa wage to nanny
4 days per week, no hours detail, will assume 40 hours per week.
Total yearly hours: 2080, so £8.65 ish an hour
If that is Gross wage then:
£1365 for employers NI.
If that is Net wage then (if 1060L taxcode)
Gross: £21940 (roughly)
Employers NI £1908
So the total cost, even adding on activities and mileage payments, could be lower or similar to £512x52 but won't by as low as £64 per day.
Would you get a nanny in Islington for 18,000... hard to know but probably not, though someone doing nanny work for the first time may accept that.

So in my view a nanny is likely to be a bit more than that but it may not be that much more than 2 children with this childminder at £64 per day, though it depends on the salary and on the other costs (heating, lighting, food, travel, outings, to name some of them).