Nanny wants to take extra leave in term time but already used allowance for year

[JugglingChaotically]

I was very clear with our current nanny that holidays in term time are to be exceptional circs only.
Also that they are vital to our life as our only help.
We pay v well for full time nanny to ensure cover in hols and after school. Also clear that if one of us travels then overtime required. and expect
We have 3 DCs all at school, no family here and GPs too old to help. We both work full time. DH travels periodically and I have a long commute.
Despite this, current nanny asked for a week to go on large holiday with friends last term - we were moving house, date on final but was def around the time she wanted, ended up moving while she was away. Nightmare but we got there.
She has no annual leave left even for Christmas. I did point this out but she said she didn't need more and would just take stat hols at Christmas.
A few weeks ago she asked if we were going away for October half term - I said no!
Now she has asked to leave early one day in a couple of weeks - she said she would ask another mother to have DD. DH will be away and the commute is such I would have to take a days leave - but I don't have any left except that saved for carol sevices, nativity play and Christmas.
At the same time she has asked for an early finish and the next day off so she can go away for the weekend.
Again offering to get another mother to cover for her.
She has asked to take from next years leave but will take unpaid if required.
I am shocked.
Nanny's swap and cover for each other but she hadn't networked with nannies.
How to pay back mothers. It's not a reasonable ask.
I just can't take leave as it will mean missing time at Christmas - and I can only take 3 days between stat hols anyway.
Never had a nanny who doesn't get their key role and problem with term time hols.
How to reply.
I can't recruit right now if she quits if I say no.

Sorry that was long.
Posting now as she first mentioned to DH not me. He expressed surprise given term time, lack of hols etc.
Heard nothing.
Email just received!
And early stop is for concert arranged months ago it appears - but could go on non work night as it is on!

No idea about any of this, but not sure if your aware you've used your dds name in here? If it's a problem just report your op and ask MNHQ to change it, hope you get an answer- sounds cheeky at best

Do you realise that you've put your daughter's name in your message. If you report it to MNHQ they may be able to delete your post, or amend it for you.

With regard to your nanny, if you feel that you have been completely clear about your contract with her, then I would say no. If the job is well paid and she enjoys it, I wouldn't think that she would leave just because of a missed weekend away.

Ive always said if you don't ask then you don't get-but I wouldn't ask so frequently.
I would just refuse the request and see what happens. You say you can't recruit at the moment- but any number of things could mean you had to.
As an aside- I realised I had no leave left for christmas (both my employers and I took more than we planned this year)- so I'm accumulating over time and will take time in lieu instead of being paid. Is that an option?

Thanks. Have reported. Haven't done that before.

Drinkyourmilk - will try talking to her but DH already did. I till she just down at get it.

Coolas. It means I would miss time at Christmas. Let to a working mother.

Re time in lieu- if she wanted to do that for Christmas that would be fine as I will be off and have scheduled my holidays.
Have done this before.
DH and I have juggled willingly in past for the very odd time off in term time by nanny.
But not for term time I can't do it now as I have no leave other than Christmas. DH also and he will be away for one.
Goes without saying that the answer will be no if I ask for unpaid leave. DH also.
So nanny can take extra leave will not be deemed a good reason!
I was v clear at interview and since. It's like teaching. Term time hols can't happen unless exceptional circs.

What would you do if she was off sick and unable to work? Could you consider allowing her unpaid leave if she also funds the difference between her wages and a temp (nanny agencies can supply these normally for a £30ish finding fee -not like the massive fees they charge for filling a permanent vacancy)

It's not exactly unreasonable to ask for extra time off - it never hurts to ask - but it would be ridiculous for her to quit if you said no. Someone who would quit a decent job because of an employer not being able to do them a massive favour doesn't sound like a good personality to have charge of kids. I don't think many people would quit over this.

The problem with the " it doesn't hurt to ask approach" is that it then puts the OP in the awful position of having to say no, and risk employee relationship, and say yes and cause herself stress and inconvenience that she pays a lot of money to avoid.

Of either having to say no...tired!!

Fish. We both took leave to cover her last holiday in term time. A week!
It's in her contract that she doesn't unless exceptional circs.
So we have already done her a huge favour.
Reluctant to have temp but will look.
Unfair on DD to have stranger for her convenience.
Sick is totally diff.
Work would give me time off/work from home. Then if more than a couple of days I would get a temp.
Plus sick nanny - mothers could reasonably pitch in.
But for a jolly?????

Pumkin. Thanks. You are spot on.

I was agreeing that it's fine to say no.
I don't agree that being put in a position of having to say no is "awful". If you declining to do her a second massive favour actually damages the relationship you need to recruit someone more sane anyway.

Have always said don't ask don't get but seems she is asking a lot esp if job and contract stated no holidays in term time

Simply say no. If she leaves then she is silly. Unpaid leave is good under normal circumstances if gone over holidays but not when asking when not meant to take holidays

Yes you could get a temp - but why should you

And you never know if a nanny /employer will quit so anyone may have to recruit/find a new job/nanny if notice is given either side

How long has nanny been with you?

Agree you should say no. You were very clear in your recruitment procedure about holidays and she agreed with that. She has already used up her "exceptional circumstances" clause for this year (albeit it wasn't exceptional circumstances at all). Yes, you have the fear she might quit if you say no but she is surely unlikely to intentionally make herself unemployed without a job to go to over something like that? Remember she needs a reference from you as well - you can't give her a bad reference but if future employers ask why she left, you are perfectly within your rights to give the true reason. How is that going to help her get a job in future?

Just say "no, that doesn't work for us we don't have that flexibility with our jobs"

I would just say no.

I would then talk to her about future networking with other nannies (a maximum of two others, obviously with children and parents you like) to build up options for the future.

Id also say no. explain that in your job, you do not have any flexibility to do her a favour, and you were quite clear with her about your requirements for no leave in term time. Id also remind her that you have already been flexible for her big holiday, and so she cannot just have more leave because she wants it - the real world doesn't work that way. Be firm.

Say no. You have granted her one favour already. If she quits, yes, you're in trouble but if she unreasonable enough to quit over this she'll quit over something else sooner or later anyway.

I agree with the consensus. The answer unfortunately is no, can't be done due to all the reasons you have listed above.

If there is a compromise on any of the days then offer the compromise, otherwise you are going to have to turn her request down and accept that she may give notice.

Thanks all.
I was beginning to wobble.
She knows she is out of leave and so have offered to take it unpaid or from next years leave (no chance!) but she just doesn't seem to get that term time hols are a problem.
Will tell her it's a problem.
Explain why.
Remind her of contract and our discussions at interview and on job offer.
And of our earlier flex.
And yes. Will encourage her to build up nanny network for support for any future one offs

So much going on at the moment - that I could really do without it.
Might as well have had after school care as employed a full time nanny as her requests to leave early or have days off are not what is in the job spec.
Sorry.
Rant over.
And thanks for the support.
Was beginning to worry if I was being unreasonable given she just doesn't get it.

Is this her first/one of her first jobs, OP? The reason I ask is inexperience in a workplace is often responsible for 'not getting' that taking extra leave isn't just about taking being paid or not paid by your employer for a day off.

She possibly doesn't have a concept of what your working culture is like (that it puts you at risk of looking unprofessional as a knock-on of making the request). It also sounds like she doesn't realise it reflects on you (negatively, probably) if she asks another mother to cover her for a 'jolly'.

If it was me as a SAHM being asked by your nanny to look after your kids so she could have a day off to go to a concert and you could keep your holiday allowance, I would be pretty unimpressed to be 'used' like that (an emergency or sickness would be quite a different thing). I'm not saying that you are asking that - as obviously you are not - but I think she is putting you in an unfavourable light by even asking other mother's to cover without your permission...

Can you explain the full impact of her request for extra leave when refusing? She really might not be thinking beyond her own convenience. If she doesn't get it after that then I'd look for a new nanny.

She is proposing to ask another Mum to look after your 3 children so she can go to a concert. On top of their own children. FFS

Or is she proposing to farm all three of them out to three separate parents, presumably for you to pick up on your way home.

Err - that would be a big fat NO from me. If she has screwed up her entitlement for this year by badly managing it then frankly it's tough.

We'd all like extra paid leave, nature abhores a vaccuum and all that.

There are options - she accepts a lower annual salary in return for additional leave [assuming you can manage the gaps] next year. You vet a reliable babysitter who can cover the odd day here and there [which I would recommend from the sound of her anyway] to cover sickness/random days off.

Final option - Net cost of the day off comes out of her salary or she pays to you. An emergency nanny from in London London is circa 20 phr to cover taxes, transport etc. You'll soon see how keen she is to see Kanye West or whoever.

New contract for next year I think. Min notice periods for requesting days off and an absence/sickness payment policy if you don't have one in place already.

I would remind her that she's already had an "exceptional" holiday for this year, one that did totally inconvenience you.

All that said, I'd also remind yourselves that you do require a lot of flexibility from her if one of us travels then overtime required. Perhaps you need to give her the option of time in lieu instead of payment at the time? Overtime banked could be used against a babysitter cost.