Is there no obligation to provide childcare?

[LogonMounstuart]

I have posted before about my struggle to find childcare as DS1 starts school. There is an accute shortage of childminders and no wrap around care at the school. All before and after school clubs are linked to schools and only offer places to pupils of those schools. Massive shortage of school places with children in catchment not getting a place so no choice to move schools...

So my question is- is there no obligation e.g on LAs to provide the option of childcare?

As it stands parents of children attending my sons school either employ a nanny or don't work (neither of which we can afford to do).

It just seems so unfair that if you end up at this school you have to stop working (or in jobs that are more flexible than mine significantly curtail working hours). I need to work, but I want to too. I have worked a long time to build a successful career. I am still so stuck and running out of time :(

Asking a classmates mum/dad to take kids on a regular basis is not a good idea. What if she has something she wants to do after school or they are sick one day etc? I think you need to hire someone. Perhaps a parent at the school would respond to an advertisement and you could find more formal care for holidays. Childcare is going to cost a lot - that's just life because the carers deserve a living wage too. if they can't earn one or the conditions are too onerous, then you get the situation so many areas are in today with droves ceasing childminding provision.

Thank you to all those who have posted helpful suggestions, that is thoughtful and kind. We have done almost everything suggested but there are a couple of good suggestions I will follow up on.

I am afraid that is the going rate for a nanny around here. They are expensive I suppose partly because they are scarce. A nanny isn't the right childcare for my children so I will make other arrangements, of course I will. But I do think wrap around care needs to be more joined up not just on offer in the affluent schools.

To those of you who suggested we didn't look into childcare before we had kids, of course we did you patronising fools! It is just you can't ascertain childminder availability, or school allocations 5 years in advance! and I have been really successful in my career in that 5 years and that has changed some things too. It is easy to be smug, we were smug and prepared too but living life sees things change!

Thanks to all the helpful people. I have the info I wanted and am grateful for that.

Yes, I don't know anyone who has had their after-school/holiday care all sorted out before deciding to have children . It's hard enough sorting out a place for your baby/toddler. You wouldthink that there would be more effort to provide after-school care in lower income neighbourhoods since those who rely on it presumably really need their jobs. As others and you yourself have said OP, the reasons they might not are that more mums are not working and those who are often have a network of grandparents/neighbours etc. Still, makes it tough for those without these options.

I've occasionally been asked to take classmates after school. Happy to do it 'pro bono' in an emergency but not something I would want to do on a regular basis at all unless I was paid a fair sum for it and would then have to register as a CM in that case. The hassle involved (both from Ofsted/extra children/parents who turn up late etc) probably would not be worth it. I suspect that would be true of a lot of the mums who are not working after they pick their children up.

We have moved house four times, so three county's and 5 school catchment areas since I got pg with dd. How on earth was I meant to plan childcare for her school years before I got pg? How ridiculous to suggest someone should have those thoughts in place before deciding to conceive a child.

You have no idea how life is going to turn out so to waste head space on something that will happen in 5 years time that you have no control over seems like a complete waste of time to me.

LogonMounstuart

But I do think wrap around care needs to be more joined up not just on offer in the affluent schools.

This statement is just not true in fact you often find it is more available in poorer areas because in the so called 'more affluent schools' lord knows what you mean by that really, parents can afford to and do employ after school nannies or childminders.

adp73 I was referring to where I live. There are 6 schools in the immediate locality. Only 1 has any social housing in its catchment. Lots of parents move out of its catchment because the want a less socially mixed school. They are not our values.

But we do think that just saying that most of the parents at that school don't work so they don't provide wrap around care is shortsighted.

If you had locally coordinated childcare then everyone can have access. Perhaps it would give some of those none working parents the opportunity to work or return to study.

I never suggested that I wanted subsidised childcare. Just access to the choice of some good childcare. Lots of people who have taken the individual responsibility line forget that working parents more than repay any investment in local infrastructure to ensure available provision through the additional tax they will pay. This is what countries which do have state subsidised child care recognise.

Logon Mounstuart Indeed other Countries do have more state provision but I think you will find their residents pay a great deal more than 20% Income Tax, some pay more than 50% Income tax. Our Country is bankrupt at the moment and maybe if we reduced the huge amount of funded maternity leave that mothers get, or abolished the free funded hours for Pre school, I had to pay for my children to go to pre school and managed and we have never be a high earning family. This then might free up money for what you want.

You seem to fail to realise that most of us pay towards the local infrastructure via our Council Tax and income tax. It is unfortunate that there is a lack of wrap around care in some areas. I am a childminder and I used to regularly have before and after school child and have them in the holidays. I used to really enjoy it and I did lots of crafts, cooking, and we would go to the museums in London in the holidays and to Kew gardens, i used to take them swimming after school, play card games and board games, it was a delight.

However the few I have had recently including a 10 year old have been a nightmare. All they want to do is play their Computer games, they have little concentration, no manners, no respect, they moan constantly about home cooked food all the want is junk, they will not play board or card games they look at you as if you are on another planet when you suggest it.

They always 'know their rights' and can be very threatening and they are often bigger than me and I have been hit and threatened not that long ago.

I live in a very affluent area where there is excellent housing and many parents are professionals at the top of their fields, are highly educated and highly paid. However they have it would seem spoiled their children and above all not spent time with them or taken interest in them and they are not pleasant to have in the house. Also said parents moan and complain at how much they have to pay for their child's care with no regard for my qualifications and experience or what I would provide for their darlings included in the fees.

I will not have before and after school children any more because of the above, I will not be treated like the scum of the earth who should be charging rock bottom fees for a more than Rolls Royce service. I am better than allowing myself to be treated like that by anyone I am very well qualified, I have over 20 years experience, i have a huge range of resources, a lovely home and I offer a fantastic service even though I say it myself , I take great pride in what I do and offer.

I am not the only cm that feels this way these days and that might be the reason why you are finding it so difficult.

The day both children and parents can begin to treat people they need to provide a service for them with some respect, then they may find that service being offered again. Just a thought?

Adp, the amount that this country spends on young children actually compares quite poorly to that of some other similar countries.

Maternity leave or free early education is provided because it is beneficial to young children, not as something to indulge adults as you seem to imply.

I am sorry to hear that you no longer find CM rewarding, but that is nothing to do with the OP.

I wouldn't assume that parents who don't work wouldn't like options after school. Maybe they can't work as they are in the same boat? No care for hours required.

If other local schools have an after school club, is it worth approaching them to see if they could offer a pickup service for your school? Some of the schools here do that because of low demand.

Branchingout, adp's remarks were about older after school children, not childminding in general, and I agree with her that they can be a real problem. I am very careful these days about taking on older children for the first time because I've had to deal with some truly shocking behaviour and I have the safety and well-being of the other children to consider.

I have also given up after school minding. This seems to be happening more and more and is starting to affect parents and schools quite significantly. On the other hand, there are more CMs now interested in only doing before and after school care, so hopefully the service will soon pick up again.

I agree with Tanith about considering the other children. Only having school children, or only having pre school children is much easier to manage.

Keep talking to the school and the LA and get other people to express their interest too. If enough people need care, someone might become interested in setting up an after school club, or registering as a CM.

I wonder if deregulation would help, such as changing the registration threshold from 2 hours to 4 hours? Then more people may consider providing after school care but it comes at a risk that some people may not provide adequate care, may care for too many children than they can really cope with.

Demand for after school clubs is low in some areas so to make a club viable they need to collect children from various schools. However if demand in other local schools is quite high, then there is no incentive for them to collect from another school, cost of mini bus and driver would not be viable if it was just collecting a couple of children.

When deciding which schools to put down on your application list, does having an after school club increase the applications to those schools with that? Whilst you may not get in to other schools, there is a chance of getting a place, though many schools now seem to be over subscribed. I do wonder if enough school places are being created to support the boom in babies we have seen in the past few years. Anyone know the birthrate figures?

They are talking about increasing it from 2 hrs to 3 hrs

ONS figures seem to indicate a drop in birthrate but an increase in population (increase of 400,600 mid-2013 vs the mid-2012 figure).
So maybe some areas are finding that there are more children and other areas are not.

Schools do seem to think there is often one parent at home, someone to various events during the day. Annoys me a bit as these days I would have thought they should assume that both parents work (at least part-time) especially in areas with high house prices as otherwise how does the school think parents can afford to live in the area.

3 is an improvement but why not 4? 3 hours is not enough for most people, does Government really think everyone works 9-5 and can get home by 6?

3 would cover most after school settings though: 3-6pm. Assume that the intention is for "main" child setting (school, day care etc) to still be Ofsted.

I'm unsure what your children are doing/have done up until now?
Can't the current provision carry on? And it IS late to not have sorted anything. Most people I know consider the care factor first before applying for schools as it is completely unworkable sometimes. Hope you find something suitable.

Are you lucky enough to just be able to pick whatever school has childcare that suits then Kimaroo? It doesn't work that way where I live.

BranchingOut 'I am sorry to hear that you no longer find CM rewarding, but that is nothing to do with the OP.' I thoroughly enjoy childminding thank you and it is extremely rewarding. Just not the after school children and their parents attitudes which are similar to the ops who think they should be provided with something for nothing by the state! In other Countries where they spend more money their parents pay over double the Income Tax we do here, in the Uk we pay one of the lowest rates of IT of any Country in the world and we have a very high Tax free personal allowance as well.!!!

Thank you Tanith.

Cindy34 Regulation and Registration is there for a reason to protect our children. I think 3 hours is plenty have deregulated.

The Op maybe should have considered before and after school while considering applying for schools if this is such a know problem in her area?

I'm sorry but families do get a lot of help one way and another with the cost of childcare in this Country considering we have a soon to be £10,000 Tax Free personal allowance and only pay 20p or 40p in the £ tax on what we earn after that and depending on how much you earn. I know before someone says we also pay a % NI but in all other Countries have to figure in expensive costs of Private Health Care into their family budgets as well.

OP didn't ask for subsidies, just whether there was an obligation for LAs to make a provision .

"The Op maybe should have considered before and after school while considering applying for schools if this is such a know problem in her area?"

Like many in these boom birth years, there is no guarantee of getting into a school which has all the features you would ideally like; the same would apply if OP moved.

Kim, I assume OP currently uses a private nursery, which usually don't accommodate children after school starts, as their business model is full day care for 0-school age.

"And it IS late to not have sorted anything. "

OP made it clear in her first post that she has been trying to find a solution for some time. You don't get school allocation confirmed till mid April - when I first contacted CMs for DS1, they wanted confirmation of school place before they'd hold a place, reasonably.

Ah, it was the comment about the children spending all day at home that confused me. Some day nurseries provide wraparound school care though, my 7 year old niece goes to one, they take them to and from school.

I think that was if OP moved her younger to an all day nanny who would then pick up the elder.

Ok, I will make the points for the last time that:

Our existing system of provision for children is already massively funded by the state (from pre-school to training courses/LA support). A lot of this just did not exist before massive investment in the late 90s.

This is rightly so, because the evidence shows that this makes a difference to children. The impact on an individual's tax bill is pretty minimal, given that you are also paying for nuclear missiles etc.

However, because this state support is provided within a marketised system, providers are free to stop providing or not provide in a particular area - adp, it is totally fair that if you are no longer finding it rewarding to take after-schoolers then you should stop doing so. Up to you, but the bad behaviour of those children is not really relevant to the OP who is just trying to sort out her own problem.

I believe that the outcomes would be better if there was also more state-run provision, where there was less need to make a profit and people like the OP would probably find it easier to access services. Clearly, the free market is not delivering her with what she needs and the situation is even tougher for parents of disabled children - a report on this came out last week.

Best wishes OP, I hope that you get something sorted out.