Child minder can't child mind so offered nannying

[x3ja]

We have a friend who was planning to child-mind for our DD who is the same age as her DS. It turns out she can't child mind at her house due to conditions on the mortgage, so she has offered to be an NWOC for us.

For us, this looks like a big rise in cost - from around £4.50/hr to £7/hr (when you factor in NI, PAYE fees and insurance) for no big difference in care (she wasn't going to look after other children anyway). She was expecting to be paid less than minimum wage as she's comparing it with what she'd get child-minding, but of course that's not possible (and we're not looking to break any laws)

We're looking into nanny-sharing, but we don't have control over whether we find someone to share with - and we need to make a call on this soon. We're also looking into how we can make it more flexible than nursery and therefore save some money through that... but those aren't really making a dent in the bottom line cost.

We're not trying to devalue her work, which will be amazingly important, it's just we can't afford the higher price. She's very much with us on this journey - the only reason we're entertaining either child-minding or nannying is because she offered and is a friend that we trust. She's also not got any other options on the table, so she's keen to try and make this work too.

Has anyone got any magic fixes for this? Or any suggestions? It may just be that it's not affordable for us, which would be a shame for us, our friend and our kids.

Thanks

No magic fixes but just to say if she is caring for her child and yours, you will be unable to introduce a third child (share) as a nanny is only allowed to care for the children of two families at the same time, or their insurance won't be valid.

I don't use a nanny, so maybe I'm missing something, but is there any way she can invoice you and work as a self employed person? She could still be called a Nanny on her tax return. Would that save you money? She'd then be able to write some of her expenses off against tax.

Could you do a mix of nanny and grandparents/nursery if the sums work out for you?

Alas there is no magic fix for that. You are quite right that it would mean that you would have to pay at NMW (which goes up to £6.50 in October 2014) and you would need to factor in payroll admin and employers national insurance, plus anything else required such as employers liability insurance which may not be included in your home contents policy.

A nanny share is unlikely to work as she would I assume be bringing her own DS to work with her (so a Nanny With Own Child) and thus if you found another family to share with she would be caring for children from 3 families at the same time... which then means childminder registration.

Sorry, no magic fix for this one.

AWombWithoutARoof - nannies are in 99% of cases an employee, so that would not work. There are also very few expenses that could be offset if they were doing very ad-hoc nannying... see recent message thread: SE Nannying, what to claim back.

You see, I told you I knew nothing about it!

Do NWOCs really charge the same as a nanny without her own child? Or is the £7.50ph cost the going rate for a NWOC? If not, then surely a discount is in order given that she is effectively working but not having to pay childcare costs for her own child. Or you pay her the £7.50ph rate and then she in effect reimburses you for her childcare costs?

If you were to do a nanny share someone else would be sharing the cost, I don't know how this works but assume she is your employee but you then get to invoice other parent for their share. Could you do something similar with nanny, invoice her for caring for half the costs so you pay her minimum wage plus extra costs but she reimburses you part/half?

A NWOC can't be paid less then NMW. A new nanny just out of college could well be paid less than someone experienced. A nanny with own child may well accept less than they would get if they did not bring their own child (we have had several message threads about this in the past, not everyone agreed to what the reduction would be). Personally I expect a 25% discount is reasonable but if that pushes salary below NMW then that causes a problem.

So 7.50 could well be the going rate in an area for a NWOC, where as a nanny of similar experience without bringing their own child would be on around 10.00 Problem is, a childminder in the same area may be around 5.00 an hour. So it is more than a childminder would charge.

Seems the only solution is to either employ her at nmw so £6ish and your friend is likely to earn a bit more then being a cm if £4.50

Or find another cm at same price if that's the hourly salary you can afford

Can't you pay a NWOC NMW and somehow deduct for the fact that they bring their own child, in the same way that a live in nanny earns less as they are getting the accommodation. I.e, she is effectively getting free childcare.

Thanks for the thoughts and facts - all very useful. Especially the bit about being unable to nanny-share with another family - that makes a big difference.

Yes, I was aware NMW goes up to £6.50/hr in October (just when we'd be starting this). Allowing for NI, PAYE fees, employers liability insurance across 3 9-hour days it works out at about £7/hr on average I figure.

The only thought I'm left with is whether, as MN216 suggested, she (or her husband?) could pay us for her childcare... effectively nannysharing with her own family. Anyone have any idea if this is possible?

So in 99% of the time nannies are employeds.
What's the 1% when they can be self employed?

I'm se but I'm temp /emergency as well as night nanny - a lot of my jobs are a day / few days here and there

Mat nurses are also se

Just to introduce another, non monetary angle into thus, OP, I personally would be very wary of employing a friend as a nanny - business arrangements grafted on to existing friendships have a notoriously high casualty rate. It is hard to go from a relationship based on equality and personal liking to one where one person is paid to provide a service for the other - much harder for one party to ask for things to be done differently (or better) and much harder for the other to accept (even mild) criticism gracefully.

It's difficult enough when it's childminder and client but at least there both parties are equal in status, but where one friend is the employer and suddenly has all the "power" and the other is relegated to employee, I think you could be setting the scene for problems. Your children are the most important thing in your life and it's vital that you feel free to ensure they're being looked after to your standards - it is much easier to discuss problems and iron out difficulties with a stranger practising childcare professionally than a friend.

Maybe the difficulties your friend has had with becoming a childminder is an opportunity for you to reconsider your options.

I am a nwoc and know many others. It's not the same as a nanny share because your working for an employer who dictates when and where you work, what you do etc. my child fits in with my job and the requirements of my employer. Nwoc therefore get min wage. You are not providing her with free childcare. You are getting a nanny for far less than you would without their own child. In my area a nanny without child would earn appox £10 an hour. I earn £8 an hour because I take my child to work with me. I would endure your getting a bit of a discount than if you employed a nanny without her own child, maybe 20%. But that's it really. I've known dozens of nwoc over the years. This is the most you can reasonably expect to save IMO. £7 an hour for a nanny to come to your house is good deal unless your in an area where rates are considerably cheaper.

She could be a childminder in your home.

A CM isn't defined a someone who looks after children in their own home, just a domestic property!

When I first started CM that's how I did it. It's rare, but not unheard of. I registered with Ofsted as normal, and rather than inspecting my property, they looked at the chosen parents house. I've since moved into my own place, and just switched the address on my CM registration.

In fact, where I live in NE London, there is an organisation of CM that work together, they rotate between houses. If you wanted more info on them I can send you their website link!

Im not sure the op could register her property and then her friend be a cm there legally

A link for what you say would be good

Cm either work from their own home or secure a property to work from attached to their home

Agree be wary working/employing friends

As I said before I think if you can only afford a cm/£4.50ph then you need to use another cm

Blondes- you absolutely can legally be a Childminder in someone else's home, Ofsted actually suggested I do it that way (long story- I had 3 families as a nanny share, couldn't register as a nanny, my flat wasn't suitable for three children, so I registered as CM in one parents house)

OP call Ofsted, speak to them, there is a solution!! (Providing your happy to have your friend CM in your home)

I will pm you the link rather than posting on here as it gives a way a lot about me! X

Childminders only need to work from a domestic property. It doesn't have to be their domestic property.

AMI88 - that sounds great, thanks.

I thought that possibility of being a childminder and working out of someone's else home had been closed off? Could someone please link to some information which shows that is still possible? Not doubting anyone, but it would be interesting to read that it still exists.

No, you can't child mind in a child you look after's house.

[http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/resources/factsheet-childcare-requirements-for-childcare-register-childminders-and-home-childcarers]]

it says further down that you would change to be a home childcarer (rather than a childminder) and therefore can't be self employed.

www.ofsted.gov.uk/resources/factsheet-childcare-requirements-for-childcare-register-childminders-and-home-childcarers

I'm trying to message you x3ja, but it's not working, I will try again later!