Child minder can't child mind so offered nannying

[x3ja]

We have a friend who was planning to child-mind for our DD who is the same age as her DS. It turns out she can't child mind at her house due to conditions on the mortgage, so she has offered to be an NWOC for us.

For us, this looks like a big rise in cost - from around £4.50/hr to £7/hr (when you factor in NI, PAYE fees and insurance) for no big difference in care (she wasn't going to look after other children anyway). She was expecting to be paid less than minimum wage as she's comparing it with what she'd get child-minding, but of course that's not possible (and we're not looking to break any laws)

We're looking into nanny-sharing, but we don't have control over whether we find someone to share with - and we need to make a call on this soon. We're also looking into how we can make it more flexible than nursery and therefore save some money through that... but those aren't really making a dent in the bottom line cost.

We're not trying to devalue her work, which will be amazingly important, it's just we can't afford the higher price. She's very much with us on this journey - the only reason we're entertaining either child-minding or nannying is because she offered and is a friend that we trust. She's also not got any other options on the table, so she's keen to try and make this work too.

Has anyone got any magic fixes for this? Or any suggestions? It may just be that it's not affordable for us, which would be a shame for us, our friend and our kids.

Thanks

Karolann- that's exactly what I did, at Ofsted suggestion, I know the inspectors are exceptionally inconsistent, but I didn't think they were that bad!

I'm trying to message OP a link to people that I know who do this, but it's not working somehow. I'm not keen to post on here because it reveals too much about me and my work (sorry!) x

So you can be a cm in another property as long as the children you are looking after aren't living in that premises

AM188 if I was part of the group of which you are speaking, I'd be a bit worried after reading the document on that link! Although if they are all registered as childminders and are moving between each other's houses only, rather than the homes of the mindees, that might be ok.

The situation where you registered as a childminder and worked out of your mindees home did exist but only for a short while and hasn't been allowed for some time. Now that role seems to be called home childcare.

It seems fairly clear that today a CM cannot register as such and then provide care in the mindees home.

Are you absolutely sure she can't just register as a childminder from her own house? I certainly never let my mortgage provider know when I registered. All my childminder friends have mortgages too and have managed to register with no problems. Can't she just not tell them?

Hey unexpected- they have been running for years, and are very well established/known in the area. In april Ofsted visited and they got their 5th consecutive Outstanding- so they can't possibly be doing anything wrong, if you know what I mean. They definitely provide care in children's homes, as the host parent gets a reduced rate for that quarter.

Best advice (as we are all saying different things) is talk to Ofsted. X

Ofstead certainly did allow it. Problem is that things change so a recent update to guidance may have changed it but I wonder if the legislation was changed.

Would someone not wanting to be a childminder want their home inspected by Ofsted and changes made to it?

Nannynick- I wander what would happen if you had registered and been inspected when Ofsted used to allow it, but now apparently don't? What would happen to that CM?

As I've said in previous posts I know of people who do this, and have been doing for years, I find Ofsted incredibly frustrating when there is little consistency!

It would not work though if there was no intention to care for other children. Caring for children from FamilyA and FamilyB would not be enough, that can be done as a home childcarer.

I would not suggest going down childminding from your home route.

Could you work out a way of swinging it so that you are doing a nanny share with HER as the family you are nanny-sharing with?

It may work better if her child's father is involved in the transaction so she's not employing herself. Then your friend A is employed as a nanny-share by you and CF, each paying £4.00 p/h to A, who then does have to pay tax and NI on that but the effective cost to you is similar to CM fees.

AIM88, I can't see where Ofsted says they don't permit it...

Guide to Registration on the Childcare Register says

====
Childminders work with no more than two other childminders or assistants. They:

• care for children at a private dwelling that is not the home of one of the children, or
• care for children from more than two families wholly or mainly in the home of one of the children

==== It then goes on to say about other conditions that need to be met, such as being under 8, more than 2 hours.

So as that is a current guide, Ofsted are saying that it is permitted but it has to be for "more than two families" so it means 3 or more families (why can't they put 3 or more, rather than more than 2?).

Where as a Home Childcarer is defined in the same document as:

==== A person aged 18 or over who cares for the children aged from birth to 17 years of no more than two families at any one time wholly or mainly at the home of one of the children.

So in my view, the number of families involved is a factor in if it is Home Childcarer or Childminder. The Childcare (Exemption from Registration) Order 2008 sets out what the exemption is from registering as a childminder and in that it says:

==== 3(1)(a)(ii) a child or children for particular parents (“the first parents”) and, in addition, for a child or children for different parents (“the second parents”), wholly or mainly in the home of the first parents or the second parents or in both homes;

So that bit is what makes nannies exempt from registering as a childminder. Thus if it is more families involved (so more than 2 families) then it does fall under registration as a childminder.

In x3ja's case, the person concerned does not want to care for any other children... so if they provided the care at x3ja's home, then they would fall under the exemption and thus Ofsted may try to insist that they can't be a childminder.

So in my view the key thing is the number of families involved. To be childminding it needs to be 3 families or more. Two is not enough.

Nannynick that document does seem to say that it is still possible for a childminder to provide care in a mindees home (subject to the proviso about numbers etc). However, looking at the document which Karoleann linked to earlier, it doesn't seem there is any practical way to fulfil the requirements e.g. (and just as an example) CMs have to undertake a risk assessment of the premises at least once a year. What happens if there is something in the home (which is not theirs) which they considered unsafe? The CM has no authority to change it and the parents may not want to change whatever it is. Where does the CM display her registration certificate, keep all her H&S files, RAs? How does liability insurance work? Is the CM providing her own First Aid kit and storing it at the mindees home as this is a requirement for childminding or is she allowed to rely on whatever chaotic First Aid supplies may be available at the home? If all the normal requirements don't apply once they are not in their own home, it rather makes a mockery of the rules, doesn't it?

As long as the host house so to speak is happy with making any changes that Ofsted say you need to make, then there is no prob. With regards to insurance, you are insured for the property on your certificate, so if Ofsted say it's ok, so sill insurers. Certificates, RA and all important documents can be kept at host house , in a locked box, which PACEY actually sell.

As I have said all through this thread, I am certain it's possible! But we aren't the higher authority in this, it's Ofsted so you have to check with them x

Just a suggestion but not sure if it would wrk , your friend was obviously happy to work for you for 3 days and earn 4.50 an hour as a childminder so could you not wrk out how much tht equals ( should cover 2 days childcare ) pay her as a nanny tht amount for 2 days child care ( should also be above min wage ) then on the 3rd day she just watches your child for free in her house as your friend . Your not out anymore money and she's receiving the amount she was originally happy to receive

Our mortgage company doesn't normally allow working from home, but were quite happy for me to cm from here. When we were sorting it all out, the adviser was very pro cm, having relied on one for her own children. She helped with the home insurance too as that could have been a problem due to my job. Is it working from home, ie the home being a business or the actual childminding aspect that is the problem? They were able to differentiate in my case and we now gave a mortgage and I am still working as a cm despite the first conversation we had with the bank.