would you sack your nanny over this....

[mummydoc]

we have ahd our nanny for 1 yr, at first she was great and i was completely won over . but gradually things slipped and several months ago she had quite alot of sick leave which gave us time to dwell/mull over the issues we weren't happy about. She is good with dds and htey are fond of her and to give her credit she does a fair bit of housework above her contracted stuff, BUT she seems to spend a huge amount of time out of the house at her friends and i have asked her before to ensure dd2 is brought home after a morning activity to have her sleep and afetr that she did for awhile but now she ahs spent all holidays at her friends house . now to be fair this friend has 4 kids and my dd1 gets on well with one of them so ok it is nice for her, but they never come over to our house , dd2 is apparently being put down for a sleep on the sofa . She also often takes my dds back to her own house to pick up her 2 teenagers and always says it is because DD1 wants to play with them or her teenagers want to come on whatever outing is happening and ihave just realised i am paying for this mileage ! why don't they get up and come with her in the morning - the final straw came last week when it transpires dd1 was left at the friends house to play and dd2 left with teenage daughter and nanny went to get haircut. no doubt all that driving around went on my mileage bill. I know she is taking the piss but i am struggling at htought of dd2 ( aged 22 months) going to nursery 3 dasy a week though dh and grandparents all agree she would love it...i need some supportive messages, has anyone sacked their nanny and what for? sorry rather long and ranting.

I'd definitely get rid. Nursery will be more than adequate for her.

mummydoc, agree your nanny is taking the piss, big time.

You asked for positive nursery experiences - DS goes to nursery 2 days a week, and loves it. He's been going since he was 11 months, and we've never had any problems. He's just moved to the bigger room with the older ones (2+), and his speech has come on massively, he's potty trained himself, having seen everyone else use the toilet, and often sings songs that I know I haven't taught him! He sometimes asks to go when it isn't a nursery day (does that say more about me though?? ). We did look at several nurseries, and I went with the one that instinctively felt right.

And you def won't be paying expenses and petrol on top!

Not sure about the contract thing, but if you give her notice like you've said, I can't see how she can complain really. I think it might be that as your previous contract has run out the law would say that you are basically employing her now on the same terms as under that contract, so if there are provisions about notice in there, I'd follow them.

thankyou Clariemow - your DS sounds cute !

From reading more recent posts, I think you have decided to give notice to the nanny, with notice period as stated in her contract. So as such, the sitation has been resolved.

However, for benefit of anyone else in a similar position (now or in the future), I'll give as view on the the initial posting, in which I can see there being a few issues which I want to pick up on.

1. Nannies own children are joining in on outings.

• when the nanny was hired, I presume you knew she had children. Was there any agreement regarding how her own children affected her work?

2. DD1 (school aged?) was left at friend house to play, without your consent.
3. DD2 (aged 22 months) was left with nannies daughter, without your consent.

Points 2 and 3 I feel are the most serious. I feel they are grounds in themself for instant dismissial.

I do not know what you have in the contract, but typically in a nanny contract, there will be a Gross Misconduct clause, which could be along the lines of;

Gross misconduct, which will result in instant dismissal includes the following: Actions which could endanger or cause harm to the children. Drunkenness or use of illegal drugs. Theft or dishonesty.

If you have used a standard nanny contract, you may have the following popular clause:

Misconduct which may be deemed gross misconduct includes but is not limited to theft, drunkenness, illegal drug taking, child abuse and violent or threatening behaviour (be it verbal or physical).

The first one of these is better for our given situation, as leaving the children with someone without your consent, could endanger or cause harm to the children.

The second one does not specify directly that leaving the children with someone else would be grounds for gross misconduct, but does (by saying not limited to) leave it open for you to say that such behaviour did amount to gross misconduct, if you wanted the nanny to leave, or grounds for a written warning if you wanted the nanny to stay.

Given that I see a nannies role as being to care for the children, the nanny should NEVER leave the children with someone else, without your consent. There are of course common-sense exceptions - such as at toddler group when the nanny needs to go to the toilet, I feel they could then ask another person to keep an eye on the children, while they nipped to the loo. However, they should not leave the premises.

Having a clause in the Gross Misconduct setion of the contract, directly relating to leaving the children with someone else, is a good thing to add. It helps to clarify what is expected of the nanny, and with luck helps to protect the children.

For those of you who may want to read more about disciplinary procedures, including how to write them, then I suggest Code of Practice book 1 (PDF) from ACAS.

thanks again - esp nannynick i did hope you were out htere somewhere as you always seem to post such clear and sensible things from a nanny perspective. as regards to nanny's kids i really don't mind them tagging along ( they are 16 and 18) and that was talked about at first, but i htink that it is an excuse for my nanny to drive back to her house and take htem to wherever they want to be dropped off ! they live approx 10 miles from us and are very rural so her teenagers are stranded rather and obviously can't get up to get a lift in the am with her as far to early ! I am glad you don't htink i am being a ranting , unreasonable mother, i have genuinely been as helpful as i can but feel now that my laidback attitude has been taken advantage off. our contract does have the second misconduct statement, do you feel what she did last week fulfils this ??

When i nannyed full time and now as a temp nanny i would NEVER leave my employers children with others without their permission.

It is completely wrong to do so.

I do feel that if it were me i would issue a written termination of employment from the date she is due back to work due to this gross misconduct and explain that she was to care for your children and was not given permission to outsource that responsibility.

As to the fraud in regard to the mileage at double salary in expenses.

Also not following your wishes in regard to your dds routine is a big no no in my career of 17+yrs in childcare.

I feel sure at 22 months your dd2 would love nursery.

Her children could always cycle??

Whatever the grounds to sack or even just give notice on anyone you have to follow the new procedure introduced in 2004. The details are on the DTI web site under Employment bit. If you don't there's a special extra penalty of 1 - 2 months' wages for a start. It's not that hard to follow. I expect a lot of people don't bother and get away with it, though.

If she's been with you over a year she might claim unfair dismissal. If not she cannot make that claim but she still might have a claim because you haven't followed the right procedure, warnings, rights to reply etc.

Whether what she's done is wrong well it doesn't look very good but I had a nanny I wanted to go out and loved it the twins were out all day because I worked from home so it depends what you've told her. I've also over the years had some of the problems you mention too - we had one nanny spending a lot of time driving her husband around at the end of the day when the children should have been back here for tea (and we'd got her through her driving test!) etc

having read all of this , think i will give her a months notice as per our contract and tell her we cannot afford it anymore and dd2 ready for nursery - will have to takle school holidays but sure i can work somehting out . as she is away for next 2 weeks can i send letter giving notice as of todays date or do i have to tell her in person. if i can date notice from today it means we only have to have her back for 2 weeks ( it is very tempting to ring her on holiday and let rip over haircut issue but probably no best move...)

Is she away on holiday mummydoc or at home?

Re school holidays, there seem to be aair number of nanny's who work for teachers so have the holidays off, maybe you could be lucky and find one who would be available for most of the weeks.

Also try Gumtree and www.sharingcare.co.uk

If you just needed a few days a week, a local agency that has temp nannies may be a solution?

There are a few childminders who take teachers children so therefore have spaces during school holidays.

Unfortunately I see the NannyJob specimen contract to be a little lacking when it comes to this particular clause. I feel a Gross Misconduct clause should be very much an Open and Shut case - it should list explicitly the actions that would result in instant dismissal, as there would be few of them.
However, that is just my view, so if you were to use that clause to dismiss someone, I would suggest contacting a lawyer as the clause does allow you to add things to it, but doesn't tell the employee in advance what those things are.

I feel you would certainly be able to issue a written warning, but going straight to dismissal could if the nanny challenged it, cause problems, as the contract does not state (in my view) sufficient examples of what consitutes gross misconduct. Therefore another option open to you would be to dismiss on notice. More info about Managing Misconduct

The DTI Dismissal - fair and unfair booklet may also be of help, in particular the bit titled: What is reasonable procedure and sufficient reason for dismissing an employee?

Located within the DTI website, I found an interesting document which mentions Gross Misconduct. file23903
It is a consultation document regarding Employment Act 2002. It says "if the employee complains to an employment tribunal, it will almost always be held to be unfair dismissal if the employer has dismissed immediately on or after becoming aware of the act of gross misconduct and without first investigating the circumstances".

Therefore, in situations of gross misconduct, procedures need to be followed, in terms of investigation of what happened, during which time the employee can be suspended on full pay.

To conclude, if the contracts states the reasons under which the employee can be instantly dismissed, then dismissal I would consider is reasonable. When however, it is left open as in the case of the contract in question, I feel that pushing for gross misconduct would be a mistake, as it could too easily be challenged. It would however warrant a written warning, and perhaps a review of the contract in which it is added to the gross misconduct section so that if it happened again, it would be instant dismissal.

Is the nannies friend another nanny or a friend outside of work with her own children? If it's outside of work then i think it's especially bad. To be honest any good nanny wouldn't do this so yes i think it's immediate dismissal. I would never take any children of mine that i look after to a personal friends house to play even if the kids were the same age. I would be worried my boss thought i was slacking off and gossiping to my friend instead of looking after her child.

She sounds like she is not treating her job like a job but dragging your dds about a bit. And going to get a haircut OMG.

I think you should either go down the gross misconduct route and explain why or give notice and use nursery as an excuse.

Quite right MatNatPlus, some of us nannies do only work term-time, so can cover school holidays for other families... I'm in exactly that position, and did a couple of weeks temping at beginning of the summer holidays.

I've had times when one of my childrens friends is here to play and so are my parents, I've needed to get something from the shops and my Mum offers to go - we both think that if the parent believes that you are looking after thier child you cannot leave them with another adult. Even if you know they are entirely trustworthy - it's not your call. I would be cross with another parent if they did this to me, let alone a nanny employed to look after the children.

NannyNick,

I was wondering,

Could mummydoc write informimg nanny of investigation into the gross misconduct and then upon nannys return from holiday present findings and then sack nanny and be within the rules??

As part of the process the nanny would need to be able to present details of what happened. She would also need to be presented with the evidence gathered. Therefore if going down that route, it would take a while following the nannies return to work - though she could be suspended on full pay while the investigation was taking place.

There is an issue as to if the action amounted to gross misconduct, or was just misconduct - as the contract didn't state the action would be considered as gross misconduct.

In terms of employee employer relationship, ending a contract on grounds of gross misconduct is I feel the lowest of all low points. So is it really worth persuing under gross misconduct, or is it better to put as a written warning and evaluate ongoing childcare needs - in this particular case changing to using a nursery?

Ok

I am assuming that your nanny has been criminal records checked. Have her children also? As her children are aged 16 and over if they have not been CRB checked you could also say that she has left them in the care of a non CRB checked person which could definately endanger them.

A childminder has to have any children aged over 16 CRB's. If I employ a 17 year old student to work with children they have to be CRB'd. It isn't acceptable even if they are but might just add weight to your case.

If you can afford it then why not give her a months notice, pay her for that month but tell her you don't actually need her to work for that month. That way you get rid of her straight away and avoid any possible claims for unfair dismissal.

Getting rid immediately by giving her a month's notice now but not requiring her to work it would be best (money allowing); your children would be safe, you would avoid any more mileage swindling and the whole stress of the situation would evaporate !!! The nanny sounds an absolute horror. Good ridence.