Is my CM over her numbers and general advise please

[Needanewcm]

Hello,
Have name changed to post this.
I have a lovely CM who my DD adores. She has been with her for 9 months now but I have become slightly worried about a few things, firstly that she is over her allowed numbers.

So yesterday I drop DD off and these are the children she has there.
DD (age 2)
Her son (age 3 but was at preschool in mornings so not actually there)
Boy (4 but only there in mornings when her son is at preschool)
Boy (4 but only there 9-3)
Boy (age 1 there until 3 apparently but often there later I've found - it was her being strange about the hours he was there that got me thinking she might be over)

Does her son count as a full place even if at preschool?
It seems a lot of under 5 year olds.

She had a friend there who I could see was feeding a child, but I don't believe this is a helper - I've not been informed of that fact and would want to check all the checks had been done etc. Would she have to tell parents if she had a helper?

I also worry that the tv is always on. I understood it would be on in mornings and eves as there are quite a few before and after schoolers - I am fine with this. However I don't really want it on all day and it has been the few ties I've recently picked DD up at "odd" times. Is this normal? What do other CMs do?

Finally, what outings do most CMs do? At the start we were told they would do various groups, outings etc. I would say she goes to one group a week whilst my DD is there, and once or twice to a soft play. Fully appreciate that the weather has been bad but I'd expect a trip to the park or a walk in the local field/ garden each day. I think the high numbers of young children are stopping her getting out and about, and the various pick ups and drop offs (9, 1 and 3) prevent activities. Again, is this usual?

Don't want to be super fussy but really considering looking elsewhere for childcare. Only thing stopping me is that my DD does seem to love the CM. Just not sure she gets the time/attention she should with so many other young children.
Do you think these are normal things?
Thanks!

So she has four under fives at any one time, yes that's too many you are only allowed three under fives.

Usually 3 under 5 I think. However she can get exemptions for extra. I'm assuming her own son and one 4 year old cancel themselves out if he's not there. And a 4 year old who is approaching 5/ the term before school I believe can be counted as a 5 year old.

So prob not over

Her son cannot be counted so she has 2 available places for c/m children or 3 at a push but she has 4 deff over numbers

Art- a child can be only counted as over 5 once in school doing 10 sessions a week

Assuming you are in England, her own son would still count even if at preschool, and she would usually only be allowed to have three under school age.

Could the friend be either an assistant, co minder or even the parent of one or more of the other children? If so, she could well be within her numbers. I think it would certainly be good practice to let parents know about taking on a helper, but I'm not sure it's a regulatory requirement.

Also, if she would not normally have had all those children at once, but some sort of exceptional circumstances meant they were there, that could be allowed, but it would have to be something unusual.

I think you need to ask the question and gauge from her response whether it is in order but she has not communicated with you, or whether she is breaking the rules. I suppose either way, if you do not find it a good environment for your child, you need to find an alternative.

I think the main exemptions are for twins/ siblings. Are any of her numbers siblings?

The rule for siblings is if one sibling has been with you a while, then parents want the other sibling to start with you, you are allowed to go over numbers to accommodate this. BUT, you could not start with siblings at the me time and go over your numbers. It is to help ensure continuity of care for the child you have had, so they don't have to leave to go somewhere to stay with sibling.

Her own child will count in her numbers too. Even when he is at pre school. Even if his other parent takes him out for the day, the childminder is still responsible for him and he still counts in her numbers. There is no way round this. I tried unsuccessfully to get round this about 12 months ago and ofsted wouldn't budge. With regard my cm numbers, I am always responsible for my own Children.

I think if you have a parent who already uses your service and wants to change a day, this is allowed even if it takes you over numbers as again it is classed as a continuity if care thing. But I thought all patents had to agree to any going over the ratio situation and clearly you haven't been told. I would raise the issue with her.

As part of ofsted regs children are meant to have daily fresh air and exercise. So, if she isn't doing this, it's not great. Is your dd full or part time? If part time it might be your daughter is just in on the wrong days so missing the toddler groups/big outings. On some days round here there is literally nothing organised going on, groups and classes wise, but on other days we have the choice of four.

Thanks for all the responses. :-)
No, none of the under fives are siblings, although one under five and a school ager are siblings but they joined last and at the same time.

If her son counts in numbers even when at preschool then she is often 1 or 2 over the allowed 3 under fives. (We are in England).
DD is 3 or sometimes 4 days (if I get overtime) so would expect a few more trips out.

It does upset me a bit, and although she is lovely and DD is safe, I think she needs a bit 'more' if that makes sense, so I think I do need to investigate other options.

Re: asking and gaging response. I'm also now pretty certain she is over numbers as it was her strange response and not being honest about the hours an under 5 was doing. I happened to bump into his mum and she recognised my DD so we got talking where she mentioned the hours her son was doing.
The CM had made a point a few times of telling me this child was only there a few hours in the morning before 9, when obviously he isn't. (Plus I saw him in the background some pictures she showed me of my DD in the day!).

Are ofsted v strict on this? I'm not in the least inclined to tell them but I bet this is why she would rather stay in all day - in case she gets spotted! Plus, I wouldn't fancy taking responsibility for all those kids outside!!

Aslong as a childminder can prove that she has the space and can care for all children in their care equally then they can go over their numbers,

if her son is not at home then she has a space when he isn't there.

Tinyturtletim, sorry but that is simply not true. There is an absolute limit of six children under eight, of whom only three can normally be under full time school age except in specific unusual circumstances. If she is over her allowed numbers there is a very real risk that she could be reported and immediately suspended, leaving parents without childcare. Her insurance is also likely to be invalidated. This is not a responsible thing to do. Even if the OP is not inclined to report her, there are plenty who would.

Needanewcm, I still think you should raise your concerns and see what she says, just in case the friend is acting as an assistant.

As a cm, it's sometimes really hard to say no to parents looking for extra hours etc, but being over numbers like others have said invalidates our insurance & registration so not a risk I personally would take. Also, I'd go stir crazy in the house all day, even just getting out for a local area walk is beneficial for me & the kids. I would ask her if she has taken on an assistant - and take it from there really. If she has, then why did she not tell you and if she hadn't then you are concerned she is over numbers. Though if you have other concerns about the standard of care she provides then maybe the time has come to look for an alternative cm.

With regard to the not going out for fresh air/exercise, how does she do the pick-up/drop offs? How far is she from school? If they're walking and ten minutes from the school, then they're getting an hour of exercise/fresh air without needing to specifically 'go for a walk'.

She shouldn't mind being asked if she's above board. I got quizzed at toddlers this morning, because I was there with 4, but I just explained why.

Tinyturtletim, Ofsted are very strict about numbers and very strict on childminders own children being included in ratios even when they are not there or are being cared for by their other parent. Note 20 of the eyfs is really clear on this.
20 The numbers include the childminder’s own children or any other children for whom they are responsible – for example, children who the childminder is fostering.. This quote is taken from the eyfs. Page 21 of the online document I think it was.

In the past it was sometimes allowed, but not anymore. They can't change the eyfs on a case by case basis as they could with previous frameworks.

It seems she has 4 under 5 / but if boy 4 is there while her ds3 is at nursery then she doesn't have 4 at one time - and then he goes home pm/12 when ds comes home then not a problem unless ds is ill as at home or 4yr stays longer

Or have I read that wrong?

But yes should go out more

I'm surprised to hear this. Up until last year, when Ofsted stopped issuing individual variations, they were perfectly happy to grant us a variation so long as it was continuity of care - either a sibling or a child already with us whose parent needed extra hours or to change days.
This was under the EYFS as well as previous frameworks.

There are two of us and we can easily cope with an extra child. Very surprised to hear of some sort of draconian clampdown during the last year - is that people's interpretation or has anyone actually been told by Ofsted that the rules have changed?

Tanith. My understanding is that we can self-variate for continuity. Has anyone heard any different?

Still shocked that some CMs think the revised EYFS means we can take on 6 under 5s!

I too would be cagey if a parent quizzed me about the hours a child in my care was attending. There are, rightly, strict rules about confidentiality and discussing one child's circumstances with another child's parent is simply not acceptable.

A childminder no longer has to apply to Ofsted for a variation in order to take on an additional child. When I phoned Ofsted to confirm this in December (I knew it was the case, but wanted to cover myself) the person I spoke to asked no questions about the situation or my reasons for planning to take on an extra child. it was simply made clear that I must do all necessary risk assessments re space etc, and be able to justify the variation at my next inspection.

If your childminder has done the same, I wouldn't expect her to discuss it with you as the additional child's circumstances, again, would be a confidentiality issue.

I believe she would be obliged to inform parents if she had taken on an assistant.

Yes, it would worry me if the TV was always on. My co-childminder and I actually never have the TV on, but I understand why some have it on for short periods of time. But if I were a parent looking for childcare, constant TV in the background would be a deal-breaker.

As for outings, I'd say it depends on the facilities a childminder has. We have a large range of equipment, including large equipment for use in the decent-sized garden, so the children have opportunities for a wide variety of indoor and outdoor activities. We find prospective parents always ask about outings/groups etc (it's on all lists of 'questions to ask a childminder'), and we make it clear that we're not whizzing them out on trips and to groups every day. As a general rule we make occasional trips to the local parks as a group, visits to local shops for a small group with one or other of us, occasional short bus rides etc. In three years, we've been to a local children's centre twice. I realise we're lucky as we have space and a garden, and there are two of us as well as a larger group of children (normally six, now seven on a couple of days because of the variation); groups etc are great for childminders who feel isolated, have only a couple of children, or don't have a garden

Luckylou is quite right that she should not discuss circumstances for other children with you.

However ... Any changes in ratios or staffing should be shared with parents. I have read that in EYFS somewhere.

I agree that it is wrong to discuss personal information about other children or families with other parents, but in my view the number and approximate ages of children in your care, or whom you propose to have in your care, is not personal information. After all, any parent dropping off or picking up at their usual time or otherwise can see who is there, and you could hardly have a meaningful discussion with parents about a proposed variation without discussing numbers and ages and the impact on ratios. In my real life, all the parents talk to each other anyway, so they would all know that x wants to come an extra day (and probably why) and if I said "an existing child aged 3 will be here an extra day on Friday next week" they would immediately know who that was so it would be pointless being mysterious.

Blondshavemorefun, yes, I think you have read it wrong, or at least differently to me. When I was inspected by ofsted last year, I asked about ratios at length. My DH is quite often at home as he works shifts and one of my dc is at nursery. The inspector was really clear that although cm can self variate numbers, it is only in exeptional cases this should be done. Even if cm own child is at nursery, the cm is still responsible for them and needs to keep the place open until the dc starts school. Obv a mindee at nursery would be slightly different. Continuity is a reason to go over numbers.
There seems to be a lot of support for cm going over their numbers and having four or more children at once on this thread. It wasn't that along ago that everyone was up in arms about the government proprosed increases in childminders ratios. At the time, I think I was one of the few people supporting the changes and now it seems everyone is granting themselves variations on their numbers and I'm in the minority for only having two mindees plus my own dc.

As a nanny, only being allowed 3 under 5 does seem a bit 'tight' ratio-wise. I know loads of nannies (and even more parents) who have 4 under 5's and it's really very doable. When I worked in nurseries the ratio was 1:4 for over 2's. I suppose with childminders it's more to do with the additional over 5's? 4 under 5 is fine, but 4 under 5 plus a few over 5's is much harder.

I agree outraged, which is why when the government wanted to increase the ratios I was one of the small minority who supported the proposal. I had three under 5 of my own children and coped and I often looked after friends children during that time. An extra one (not childminding, just as a favour for a friend) was completely doable for me. In the holidays I have 6 under 8's and again, it is fine. The children I have, their ages etc work together. It just seems to me, that a lot of the people who were originally against the increased ratios for everyone are quite prepared to go over their numbers as a variation.

I think there may well be an increased need for "continuity of care" variations as a lot of parents are being forced to change days/hours or accept overtime that they might have felt more confident to turn down a few years ago. I see the employers getting more demanding and less sympathetic to family needs. There is also a continuing reduction in the number of CM places, at least in this area, where a number of very experienced minders have called it a day. This makes it more difficult to suggest anywhere else a parent can go if you can't meet their changing needs.

I was also against the increase in ratios for CMs and still see a variation as a temporary and exceptional measure. I wouldn't like to see the increased ratios (e.g 1:4) become the norm. If looking after four young children is your daily routine, where do you go when one of them has a new baby sibling, or a parent needs extra help when ill - do you then have 5 or 6? I think the old system of variations controlled and monitored by OFSTED was actually right in principle, providing a bit of flexibility but not too much. What needed to be addressed was the apparent randomness of decisions and how long it took to deliver them. The current self-regulation is just too open to misinterpretation and abuse, imo.