Toilet related! Differences between CM & nursery

[ZenNudist]

If be interested in CM viewpoint on this. The question equally applies to nursery staff.

Is it acceptable for one of your charges to have 6 wee accidents in a day? If they are 3.2yo & have been potty trained for 6m?

Ds does have lots of wee accidents at nursery. More than he has at home with me. They often send him home having gone through three sets of clothes, which I think is showing lack if care on their part. Today they reached a low of 6 changes. I think this shows lack of care on the nursery's part. I'm also concerned they are teaching him that its ok to wet himself! AIBU?

Ds is similar to lots of my friends' dcs who will hold out on going to the loo or say he doesn't need it when he does. At home with me I keep an eye out and ask/make him go to the loo. Usually when I want a wee I ask him if he needs it too.

I recognise its different when you have lots of children to look after. Am I being unfair on nursery? Or are they doing a bad job on teaching good toilet habits?

6 accidents a day is a lot if they have been potty trained for 6 months. If you didn't ask your ds to go, how many accidents would he have with you? My dd had three accidents yesterday, more that she was forgetting to go till the last minute and couldn't get there on time. Is he so engrossed in what he is doing he forgets? As a cm I would be reminding him to go more often though, partly because I don't want wee in the carpets, but more because its better for him to wee in the toilet than his pants. What reaction do they have when he wets himself, if he is thinking it's ok he may keep doing it. I'm going to go down the tough love route with dd as it is not ok to have so many accidents after being dry for 12 months.

6 accidents in a day is a lot.

Is he really potty trained or do you ask and take him to the toilet a lot when he's with you OP?

IME children often get so engrossed in an activity that they put off going until the very last minute and then don't quite get their clothes sorted in time at the toilet. Is that what's happening and he is making an effort to get to the toilet or is he just wetting anywhere?

You're doing a bad job on teaching good toilet habits. If he doesn't go unless asked/made to he isn't potty trained imo. There is no way in a group care situation they can be constantly checking if he needs the loo. You need to teach him to go when he needs to. YABU.

Has he ever been dry at nursery?

I would be considering asking nursery to up his fluid intake there, same at home, to stretch his bladder and therefore increase holding capacity. Counter-intuitive I know! They could also consider prompting at hand wash time but really he ought to be responding to his body's cues and asking or going by himself to the loo but ofc every child us different

constipation can cause leaks and accidents, have you considered this?

Thanks it's helpful to hear from others. He potty trained fine 6 months ago. then after three months began to have more accidents. I stay on top of it in the same way as other parents. Discussed it with friends who have mixed bag of well trained children and some still having accidents. Ds not unusual. I feel 3 changes of clothes is a bad day and I usually know its down to me not insisting he wees before /during some all-absorbing activity. I also initiate wee visits before we go somewhere. If I'm going I take him with me. If I waited for him to ask then I'd probably have to deal with more pee soaked clothes!

He will take himself to the loo without being asked, doesn't have poo accidents. He is really inconsistent about recognising he needs to wee. Like you say he gets absorbed in stuff and won't go. Also the accidents he has with me are often he hasn't pulled his pants down properly when he goes to the loo. Or doesn't make it in time.

My question was really about what's realistic in a group care setting. To my mind its easier to ask a child if they need the loo than strip & change them several times a day!

He is there 4 days a week and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect them to teach their charges about not wetting constantly. They initiated potty training. It's not something I foisted on them.

I have accepted the 2-3 changes a day most week days. I feel it's not very good care on nursery's part & they are reinforcing that its acceptable to wee in clothes all the time.

MaryAnn I'm going to ask what reaction they have to him wetting. I don't think they react. I've mainly been advised by friends to treat accidents as neutral and not scold him. A few weeks ago I was getting annoyed with him (a low point being when he wet himself stood next to the toilet brushing his teeth!)

I don't want to give a blow by blow of my ds toilet training tribulations. I'd love the help of trained CMs who are much more experienced than I am in this but I suppose the point of my question is how its supposed to work when you have several dc to look after.

DeepThought (great name!) will think about fluid intake. He's a big lad (just age 3 but bigger than some 5 yo). He can bolt a child size drink in no time & will go back for more if its freely offered which I think nursery do with waters. I think he's already drinking a lot, esp at nursery, which is fine but then they need to make sure he's not wetting because he drank twice as much as the others.... Oh I don't know, confused!

Am going to schedule a discussion with nursery for Friday. Any other thoughts very gratefully received .

It's up to you to teach him that! You're his parent. You need to deal with the problem and nursery should support you, but ultimately it is your responsibility.

You need to do a sticker chart or something that he will respond to and get him 100% dry. You really need to reduce and then stop the constant reminders. At this point it's ok to be disappointed/cross with him when he wets himself. You should never be cross when they're first learning, but wetting himself 6 times in a day because he can't be bothered to go in the toilet is ridiculous.

Outraged, He doesn't wet himself 6 times a day with me. He doesn't with nursery usually but because it happened today I am spurred on to tackle it with them.

He does wet himself up to 3 times a day at nursery. He might have one accident with me. I don't constantly remind him. He doesn't ask me to go much, tends to either take himself, forget entirely or tell me too late. I do very similar to other parents. The nursery accidents are definitely making things worse.

We went on a 2 week holiday where he was mainly dry. When in the villa he'd just take himself to the loo & shout 'go away! to me. We didn't have a problem out & about because he'd go to the loo with one of us.

So I know he can do it. I think that in nursery where there are lots of friends & activities & the loos not near enough then they are instilling bad habits.

It's all very well saying its my responsibility. But for 40 hours a week the nursery are in charge. That's why in going to talk to them. I have already asked what I can do to help and I got a lot of helpless looks & shrugs.

It's got worse since he moved to preschool, dropped his nap & I think today's low point was probably a combination of him being under the weather and nursery being in disarray due to children in need event. Still it's not good enough.

googled sticker charts and got this funny one

I think you need to stop blaming the nursery tbh.

How are they instilling bad habits? Are they giving him a prize when he wees in his pants?! I very much doubt it. He has a bad habit of weeing in his pants, that is not the nursery's fault (unless he's asking for the loo and they're saying no or similar).

The nursery should support you, but they don't have to be the ones coming up with a plan.

Accept that the problem starts at home and make a plan. Then tell the nursery what it is and they should support you in implementing it.

I would bribe him with a sticker/sweets/small toy that he can have when you pick him up at the end of the day.

Sticker charts work well with some children.

Is he scared of the toilets at pre-school? Have you been in there with him when you drop him off? Is there any issue around not wanting to use the loo at nursery?

Do you get him to sort himself out when he wets himself i.e. put the wet clothes away, get new ones out, put them on etc.? You need to make it more effort for him to wet himself than to go to the loo.

when I was a nanny I had a little boy how was toilet "trained" if I didn't check he had been to the loo before we went out, mid morning, lunch time ect he would be wet. As his parents his life had a predictable pattern when with them that's when he needed the loo. It took me a year before I could rely on him not wetting himself if I got distracted with his 2 younger siblings. When his siblings started using the potty I made sure right from the off I asked them at different times from each other as well as different times each day. They were dry really quickly, even the parents noticed and how I had my different approach from them probably helped.

The other danger when you look after you own child is you can read the signs that they need the loo. When someone else looks after your child they may not see the signs. You really do need to stop asking him and increase the amount of water he drinks so that he has more chances to get it right during the day. It will also increase his bladder size.

I'm not sure what are you are blaming the nursery for here?

If a child needs constantly reminding to go for a wee after 6 months then they aren't really potty trained.

If ive read this right and when in your care even with you reminding him/making him go he still has accidents even just one a day then im sorry but he is not properly toilet trained. My DS was having 6 accidents a day at nursery but that was in the first few weeks of training not after 6 months.

Maybe take a deep breath accept its not nurserys fault and start again with stickers/rewards for going himself not being told to go.

I agree with rewards when he has been dry all day at nursery. Also take him to the toilet there yourself and let him show you, in case he is worried about using the toilet and trying to hold on. Speak to his key worker and see what she says.

He is not really toilet trained until he takes himself to the toilet every time without being reminded. Accidents should be rare after the first week.

If one of my mindees had six accidents a day, I would say they weren't ready/ toilet trained properly.
I had one just starting out and they had 4 in one day (up to 2.30) for several days. Mum just put her back in nappies as she simply wasn't ready. Neither were they as a family due to illness of a grandparent.

I work in a nursery. A toilet trained 3 year old should be able to use the toilets independently - there isn't the staffing to have someone reminding him all the time. A pre-school class probably has two or three adults in it - if one is with children outside, one is doing an activity inside, who is supposed to be following children round spotting who might need a wee?

You say he began to have more accidents - was he ever completely dry at home, or has he always had accidents?

This is very common, especially with boys. My DS was wetting himself daily at school right up until he was around 9 or 10 because he would be concentrating hard and didn't notice he needed the toilet. I thought it was just him, but his friend did the same when he came to play one day - they were 7.

I think you need to concentrate on the toilet timing aspect. By all means, he needs to learn to go when he feels the need, but that's hard when he's distracted. Teach him to use the toilet at every opportunity, even if he thinks he doesn't need it.
The suggestion to increase his fluids is also a good one.

Your child isn't toilet trained, he's just not in nappies any more! I know - I have a 3.2yo DD who was TTed a year ago, brilliant at home and nursery then started having accidents after 3m and essentially incapable of taking herself for about 3m. Gone back to basics here and at nursery. I can keep her dry but this is not the same as her being trained.

Work with nursery, do not blame them. We have got her from 5-6 accidents to none by taking her every 2 hours, here and at nursery. They have now eased off a little and after 1 or 2 accidents she has been reliably dry at nursery, taking herself independently. She is still hit and miss at home but starting to take herself independently sometimes at home. We're getting there. You will too, but you and nursery need a plan together and you will need to do a lot of laundry before your DS is TTed! Good luck - I know the pain!

I'm a bit surprised at the comments suggesting he should be able to say when he needs the loo. Surely potty training takes time and isn't instantaneous?! We started with ds (2.7) a few months ago and just take him at regular intervals. He is usually too busy playing to notice and will have accidents if not prompted. But nursery have no trouble taking him regularly even if he doesn't say he needs the loo. Maye you need a nursery with a higher staff ratio?

6 months is too long to still need reminding IMO.

With DS after about 2 weeks the only time I needed to tell him to go for a wee was if we were about to go out - which I still do 18 months down the line as part of getting ready to go out.

A child is only toilet trained when they can do it independently (other than help with tough clothing and wiping bum after a poo obviously) as far as I am concerned. Until then they are atill "training" (for want of a better word!)

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a child of three who's been TT for 6m to ask to go or to go independently. I'd expect the odd accident but three times a day, he's not TT then as a previous poster said he's just not in nappies.

Personally I'd take some time off work and re start it. But I see it as my job not nurseries so that's gonna be a minority opinion.

'A child is only toilet trained when they can do it independently '

^^this.

No-one has said potty training should be instantaneous Hairy, there is a good six months difference between instantaneous and 'potty trained for six months'.

You need to get your DS taking himself too, otherwise you'll be facing the same problem in 6 months time. At 3+, in school nursery or the pre-school room in a day nursery the expectation is they can go to the toilet by themselves. Unless he has SN or a medical condition, he can't go independently because you haven't taught him to.

my DD is 4.3. she's been toilet trained for 2 years. since she started reception we've rarely had a week without her coming home at least once in spare school knickers/tights. She says she just gets totally absorbed in what she's doing and runs to the toilet but if there's someone else in there already she's left it too late to hold on and ends up wetting herself. The school are totally chilled about it (perhaps too chilled as she admits "it doesn't matter because Mrs E [teaching assistant] gives me new dry pants") but I'm just ignoring and getting on with it

Is your DS asking to go to the toilet at home,or does he go just when you take him or remind him?After 6 months I would expect him to ask to go,even if he can't do it independently.Maybe he just isn't ready.With the support of parents,we've tried to potty train one of my mindees twice in the past 5 months-we still haven't succeeded and he was 3 in September.He was getting stressed,mum was getting stressed and I was constantly mopping the floor!He would go if I put him on the potty,but other than that,he would do it where he stood.And he didn't even realise he was doing it.
They do get absorbed in things and accidents do happen but 6 is excessive!I know from working in a nursery that it's just not practical to take children off to the loo every 20 minutes-the nursery workers probably have a group of children to care for each,and they can't just leave the others every so often to take one to the toilet.They probably have set toilet times unless a child specifically asks to go.
Would you consider pull-ups for the time being?I'm not usually a big fan of them but I think in this situation they may help.

Appreciate the comments everyone. I'm feeling much more relaxed today. I slept on it, nursery were when I mentioned it as I took him in as a 6 accident day is a joke by anyone's standards. Promised to pay bit more attention. Ill have a proper chat with manager when I'm off work tomorrow. I've asked before what I can do to help and they just look confused.

Evertonmint am not a million miles from your experience. I know dc do regress but its frustrating. I looked at his nursery book today. 4 months of no accidents dotted with occasional ones with good reason (weed in pants on toilet, early days pull-up at nap time leaked etc). Since mid sept there have been 6 days of 3 accidents in a day. Feels like more, several 2 accident days. 6 in a day is a low point. We didn't even have that when we first TT! Today: all dry again. Go figure!

It's just a nursery issue. He's not scared of the loos there. To be fair on them I usually love his nursery but this was one of those times i really doubted them.

When I felt like the accidents were building up at home, I started to pay more attention to his habits. Im being harsh on him if i say he doesn't ask to go to toilet, he does, particularly at mealtimes, when we are in the car or at bedtime! He often just goes himself at home or in familiar settings. I also ask him to go before a favourite tv programme or as part of going out routine. When out I take him when I go. We are out a lot and its just common sense to go together eg. in sainsburies rather than not taking him when i go then having him ask when we're halfway round Aldi! Iykwim?

I'm not asking nursery to remind him constantly. I'm expecting them to have a routine when all dc go together. If he's had 6 accidents in a day, something is amiss. I suspect they didn't take him to the loo after an accident and that's not let him empty his bladder, hence a spate of in pant wees.

We think the 6 wees in pants were due to the excitement of pj day at nursery & ds being under the weather.

Hey ho, just going to keep at it. I can't relax and like people say deem him fully TT until the nursery issue is licked. Warnings that it could still happen into school years make me more nervous!!!