cms - how much input should parent have on naps?

[RattyRoland]

My ds is 13mo and recently started with cm two days a week. Cm is great, really like her. The only thing that troubles me is she wants ds to nap an hour at 10am and 1hr30mins at 130pm. In my experience ds won't nap at these times, so he has a routine of sleeping 1h30m at noon at home.

Cm seems quite certain she wants naps at her times but says ds cries and takes ages to settle at 130, I think because he's not tired then- he would never nap as much and so soon after the first nap at home. Ive mentioned this to cm but she suggested I do my usual routine of one noon nap at home and she'll do hers with ds.

This means he has two routines and I'm finding him hard to settle to nap, as is cm, hopefully not CIO though :( is it normal that cm does own routine and parent different and would I risk alienating a really good cm by asking her if she'll agree to nap him at noon like I do?

At my place a noon nap would mean missing lunch. I would probably try to get a toddler used to a noon nap to last a bit longer and put them down after lunch, or maybe if they were falling asleep over lunch, then let them have a morning catnap to keep them going. It simply would not be practicable to have everyone napping at different times through the day, bearing in mind that would also mean eating at different times too, and limiting the opportunities for any activities or trips. That said, I talk over our current routines and discuss the extent to which any new ones' own current routines would be able to be accommodated before a new little one starts. I have to say I find the comments about paying the piper and calling the tune unreasonable and slightly offensive. When you opt for a childminder for your child, you accept that they will be welcomed into a family where the needs of all the children are balanced and some compromises made. You pay for shared care and you are expected to be flexible accordingly. It is really no different to what happens with second or subsequent siblings. If you do want to "call the tune" you need to pay the price for exclusive care - and there are plenty of posts on here to suggest that even those who do that are sometimes disappointed that their expectations are not met in some detail.

Each Cm does things slightly differently. We have to ensure that whatever we do it meets the needs of all the children where possible.

The youngest I care for is 3 and still sleep during the day. She wakes up early and is at mine usually just before 7 30. She does not really sleep at home.

You do have an input in what happens re your child, however the cm may have other children who need to nap and it makes sense to me to have them all napping at the same time. Does your little one need to sleep at 10am? would the noon sleep be enough?

Just because I don't want to employ a nanny doesn't mean I expect my views about what is best for my children ignored by the person I pay to look after them.

I am a client. My business is conditional on my concerns about their care being taken seriously.

If you need my money less than you need your routines, then I guess you are free to do whatever suits you.

It's not remotely disrespectful to think someone you hire to do a job should do it to your satisfaction.

Almost impossible to make sure every parent is completely satisfied imo. All parents have to compromise at some level. It doesn't mean a childminder is not doing what their paid to do if they can't meet your requirements 100%, maybe she's doing her best to meet everyone's needs (including her own) as best she can. The only way to dictate an exact routine of your own is to hire a nanny for one on one care.

agree with Seb 100% again. If you want that level of control AThing, you really do need to pay someone to care for your child exclusively. We will, of course, try and accomadate parents wishes but it is not always possible and if that is not acceptable to you, you need to pay for 1-2-1.

It's the same as a nursery or school setting, you accept that your child is one of 30 or so and you learn to adapt to that. Childminding is a similiar scenario but on a small scale.

I wish I could get children to sleep when I want them to. My mindees sleep when they need it and for how long they need it for

It's nothing like a nursery or school setting. That's why I choose it.

Wanting to be treated like my business matters and like my child's needs are more important than the routine of a CM is not "control" and I've had two very successful relationships with very different CMs who were both extremely good at what they do.

But someone who thinks they get to dictate the amount of sleep and the exact timing of my child's sleep might want to look at their own control issues.

I don't pay a childminder to treat my child like a robot.

I'm extremely glad neither of you are anywhere near my children. You sound shockingly unprofessional and uncaring.

"I wish I could get children to sleep when I want them to. My mindees sleep when they need it and for how long they need it for"

This is the kind CM I choose to do business with.

This thread is making me appreciate our CM even more than I already did. We never had to try to "control" what she does, from the first day we met her she was asking about what our routine is and how we do things because that's how she finds children settle quickest and easiest. If anything it's us telling her not to worry and DD will fit in around her routine. Second baby, she's used to fitting in!. Though certainly for us, fitting in is always easiest in the direction of keeping them busy so they stay awake longer rather than trying to get a not-tired baby to nap sooner.

This is why I said OP needs to know why CM is doing this. Is it an unavoidable pre school run? Is it that the DC is so tired at CM they fall asleep early? Is it that the CM wants the child to fit in with her own routines? We don't know. I try an accommodate parents wishes as much as possible and where I can't, we work together to reach a compromise. My mindees do not all sleep at the same time and it is nice to have 1 or 2 to work with while a couple are asleep.

AThing, I don't believe anyone here has suggested that parents' wishes should be ignored, simply that there has to be a bit of give and take and possibly a few compromises to try to best meet everyone's needs in a shared care situation of any kind, either within a family or in childcare.

Athing, thank you for liking my way of minding. I would however say that a parent is indeed paying me for doing a job but they are paying me to do it my way. I just happen to believe in sleeping on more or less demand rather than strict routine. This sort of thing is discussed before the parents decide whether or not to come to me.
I wouldn't/couldn't allow a parent to dictate to me what I should be doing during the day - there has to be give and take both ways and at the end of the day, if what the parent wanted didn't fit in with how I childmind I would have to turn their business away for both our sakes. It has happened where a parent has wanted me to mind their child but their child sleeps in the morning and not the afternoon. I am out every morning and prefer it if the children sleep after lunch (which they generally do but not always) so the morning nap would not suit - therefore I turned the child down much to the disgust of this parent. I was sorry not to be able to help but that's the way it goes.

Come to think of it, even all the nurseries we looked round kept babies on their home schedule in their "baby rooms", mostly up to 18 months or 2.

A childminder who is insisting on an extra hour of naptime and two separate naps instead of one and complaining to the mother that the child won't sleep at the times she has designated for a nap is not acting professionally.

Here's my instructions to CM: "she normally sleeps at x time for around x minutes." The end.

The CM can do whatever the fuck she chooses when it comes to naps while they are with her as long as it doesn't affect me.

So if my child is upset or out of sorts due to having too much/too little sleep or sleeping at the wrong time, I expect that to be sorted.

If the child is happy I will never query how much sleep they are getting.

As I find they are sleeping less (or occasionally more) or shifting times, I will mention it for info. But whether it makes any difference to what happens during the day at CMs is a matter of complete indifference to me. Unless the child is unhappy, tired, not settling well at night etc.

And I certainly will not be listening to a CM bellyaching about how my child won't sleep to her schedule. Your routine? Your problem.

catkind, nurseries say they keep babies on their home schedule. That's not the same as doing it.

As far as I can see, under the EYFS principle of 'The Unique Child' any CM or nursery should accept that not all children will need to sleep at the same time.

There is a difference between adapting a child's schedule slightly - be that a nap just half an hour later in order to have lunch first, a later lunch to allow a nap when it's needed or sleeping in a pushchair on the school run instead of in a cot - and trying to make a child go to sleep when they don't need to, in order for you to 'have a break' or because 'that is what the children in my setting do'.

If I am working and have three early years children around, I might not get a break. That's just my tough luck.

LOL ZuleikaD, well possibly not, but when we visited some were asleep and some awake, so they certainly weren't all on the same schedule.

I am sure most childminders will try their utmost to accommodate parents' wishes but time and time again, I find that childrens' sleep patterns and routines are totally different at my house when compared to their routine at home.

An 8 month girl who started with me in November came with a "warning" from the parents that she never sleeps for more than 20 minutes but this will probably happen about 5 or 6 times in a full day. On her first day with me, she slept straight through for 3 hours (I was really quite worried and checked her so frequently, I assumed I would wake her up). Now almost four months later, she still has one 3 hour sleep with me at just about 1 year old, yet at home is still on the 20 minute cat-naps.

I tend to allow the child to dictate the amount of sleep their body needs but always make sure that parents know what I am doing and why.

She is not a good cm if she is trying to force a baby into her routine.
A good cm recognises that each baby is diferent and should be allowing each one to have their own routine.
A good cm recognises that the parent knows the child best and should be working with the parent to meet the child's needs.

Op, you are the customer and the cm should be amenable to your wishes. Tell her that your DS is to sleep after lunch, as you have previously requested and as he does at home. he doesn't need 2 routines- he has his own routine which she should be following.

insancerre it's perfectly possible to be a good CM while still allowing for some flexibility in a child's routine to accommodate the other children in the setting (eg moving a nap by half an hour so as to do a school run or whatever). But the OP is quite right to question why this CM wants to push an extra nap.

insancerre, a good childminder cannot allow each child to have their own routine as there is a possibility she will never be able to get out of the house.
The childminder will have policies and the customer will have to adhere to those policies or else take their business elsewhere.

I'm a 'Good' childminder, my policy is that children sleep as and when they need to.

There is no need for children to sleep if they are not tired. There is every chance they'll sleep differently with a CM than at home, and that is fine but a good CM won't impose a routine upon a child - like the one detailed in the OP.

A child who needs to sleep when you go out shouldn't be an issue. My own DS usually needs to nap as we go out to do a school run so I get him dressed to go out, put him in the buggy and he falls asleep just before we leave.

Naps are something that can be worked around, they don't need to be done to a strict timetable.

But if you are out at an activity and a child is asleep or tired then they are missing out so surely it is better to try and get a child to fit in with a routine. I agree that you can't impose a routine on a child but for me it is better if the child fits in with me.
I go out every morning and stay in for the afternoon so therefore it is better for all involved if the children are awake in the morning and then sleep straight after lunch. When they wake up nice and refreshed we do an activity then hopefully the children will be tired and ready for bed when the parents want them to be. I try to engineer that for my mindees for both their benefit and mine.
I have twins today who came tired. We went to the library, had lunch and now they are asleep and will most likely wake in about 5 mins. They will then have a lovely afternoon baking with me whereas if I let them fall asleep this morning they would have been cranky about 3.30pm - just before mum comes to collect them.

I disagree. If a child is tired, then they're probably not going to get that much out of the activity.

If a child 'misses out' on the activity, they're gaining by getting rest that they clearly need.

Certainly if I were looking for a childminder, I would be put off by one who tried to 'engineer' my children's needs to suit their own, or one who tried to keep my child awake in order to take part in an activity. If that meant they'd be cranky by the time I came to pick them up, then so be it, that's part of being a parent. The needs of the child come first.

I agree with Fliss - I think the sleep when they need it is far more important than the activity. I suppose the best answer is to take on children whose routines (give or take a little) can fit best with the way you do things.

I wouldn't do it straight away with a new child - it happens gradually. Like weaning them off the bottle and onto food. It's amazing how quick children adapt. Got to say though - it doesn't always work so that's that out the window. It's very hard to explain in writing what I am trying to say. I have no hard and fast rules - just what I try and it always suits everyone - except when a parent asks me to keep a child awake just so they can get an early night.