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Paid childcare

Discuss everything related to paid childcare here, including childminders, nannies, nurseries and au pairs.

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Original poster

unregistered CM

40 replies

fairylightsinthesnow · 28/01/2013 09:16

We think we have found a perfect new CM but she is still working toward being registered - paperwork issues rather than real ones IFSWIM but other than not being able to use childcare vouchers, are there any other downsides to this? We need to start with her right away having given notice to our current one due to DS being manifestly unhappy with her. Many thanks for any input

OP posts:

Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

Set a reminder

badgerhead · 28/01/2013 09:22

Yes, she won't have any Public Liability insurance, has she done her 1st Aid, safeguarding & initial training as she can't be registered until those are completed.

LesbianMummy1 · 28/01/2013 10:04

Do not use her as a childminder yet it could slow down her registration as she could then be accused of unregistered child minding which delays the process

She will not have public liability insurance or business use on her car insurance she will not have legal paperwork she may not yet have her 1st aid and may not have finished her training course.

If you need to start now its best for her to work as a nanny until registration is completed.

Original poster

fairylightsinthesnow · 28/01/2013 12:18

thanks, that's really helpful. If we employ her as a nanny, what does that then mean for her insurance etc? Do nannies not need it? I know it means we have to pay her and do tax and NI etc. That might be a solution.

OP posts:

TotallyBS · 28/01/2013 12:28

A mum helped us out when we suddenly fired our childminder. It took her a few months to sort the CM paperwork. In the mean time we paid her cash for being a nice mum as opposed to being a unregistered CM .

ReetPetit · 28/01/2013 13:04

unless she worked in your home Totally - that was illegal and also pretty foolish imo

nothing is more important than the safety of your children and to use the services of an unregistered cm is putting them at risk. If something happened to your child, you do not have a leg to stand on as you have used her knowing she was unregistered.

If you chose to employ her as a nanny at your home that is a different matter. Do not use her in her home until you know for sure she is fully registered.

TotallyBS · 28/01/2013 13:34

Reet: foolish? A stranger with a certificate and insurance isn't necessarily more competent than a mum I was friends with.

In fact, we had just fired our registered CM so it was Hobson's Choice for us. There were local CMs with vacancies but their other charges were at the other (larger) school which was too far from our school. And like I said, she was a mum that was also a friend

Runoutofideas · 28/01/2013 13:47

TotallyBS - I don't think it was foolish. It is however, illegal. I think it is a shame that this is the reality of the situation. In my opinion, parents should be allowed to choose who they wish to pay to look after their children regardless of qualifications, registration etc (and I say this as an Ofsted registered childminder). Lots of parents don't care at all about EYFS and official targets for their small child's learning and development. They want someone who they know to be kind and caring and who will look after their children safely.

But, as the law stands at the moment, and to protect your children as well as you can, this lady should be your nanny and work from your home until such time as her registration is complete.

ZooAnimals · 28/01/2013 13:48

'In the mean time we paid her cash for being a nice mum '

and you paid her tax and NI as well? and employers NI?

Strix · 28/01/2013 13:48

Fairy, hire this mum as a temp self-employed nanny and leave the filing to her. (but check that she does in fact qualify for self-employment). Then use her as a CM when she is registered.

I rather sympathise with Totally's point of view after my recent (and ongoing) exerience with ofsted. They are horrible people who are not the least bit interested in the welfare of the children. The way they treat my (indisputably fabulous) childminder can really only be accurately described as a bloody witch hunt.

It's not something I or my childminder have done (or would do) but I do understadn the point that actually knowing someone counts for a lot more than OFSTED bureaucracy.

ZooAnimals · 28/01/2013 13:56

'but check that she does in fact qualify for self-employment'

^This.

Very, very few nannies qualify as self-employed, so do check.

This link should help

Original poster

fairylightsinthesnow · 28/01/2013 15:59

thank you. She wouldn't be able to work in our home as she had kids of her own that she would have to get to school. It is difficult

OP posts:

TotallyBS · 28/01/2013 15:59

Zoo - the parent does not pay NI for a CM since usually there aren't enough hours involved (that is why they are called CMs)

And nannies on standard terms of employment are not recognized by HMRC as being self employed.

Runoutofideas · 28/01/2013 16:29

No - childminders are legitimately self employed so declare their own earnings and sort out their own tax and NI contributions. Nothing to do with hours worked.

Fairylights - the lady would be allowed to have your children for up to 2 hours a day in her own house without being a registered childminder. When I was in the process of registering, I nannied for a family in very similar circumstances. I just did it between my house and theirs, and ensured I wasn't looking after the children in my house for more than the 2 hours. Eg - she would drop her children with me at 8, they'd be in my house for 1/2 hour before school run, then I'd take the little one to her house for the school day, pick all the children up from school and have them all back at mine again for another hour until they were picked up - or take them all back to her house if she was going to be longer than an hour. She understood that it ws a temporary solution and once my registration came through, it all became much more staightforward.

ZooAnimals · 28/01/2013 16:29

'the parent does not pay NI for a CM since usually there aren't enough hours involved (that is why they are called CMs)'

No they are called childminder's because they mind children! You don't pay their NI because they are self-employed and therefore pay their own NI. Many, many childminders work full-time so I don't where you got the 'not enough hours' from!

As you said, in your case she was a 'nice mum' NOT a childminder. A 'nice mum' is essentially a nanny with own child if it's at your house or an unregistered childminder if it's at her house. Which was she? A nanny is very rarely able to be self employed. Was your nanny self-employed? Or you just paid her cash in hand and dodged the tax?

ReetPetit · 28/01/2013 16:45

lol at TotallyBS - you clearly know everything about childminders
don't start trying to give out advice on a matter you clearly have no knowledge of - leave it to the experts - like those who actually do the job.

MaryPoppinsBag · 28/01/2013 17:14

I was asked to do this by a parent who had parted company with her CM. She asked me early on in September to do it and I said no.
It took me until mid November to get Ofsted out and another week to get my certificate.

The thing with Ofsted is you don't know how long they are going to take. I would have been breaking the Law for 2 months - no thanks.
My 'paperwork' took 4 months to process!

As you have left your current CM in a hurry I wouldn't want to run the risk of her reporting your new one to Ofsted.l either.

Have you seen her CRB?

HiccupHaddockHorrendous · 28/01/2013 17:36

While my friend was registering, she was asked to look after a child and was advised by cssiw to look after her for free until her registration came through. She just looked after her before and after school, a couple of days a week though.

Whilst I do appreciate that cms need to be registered, I do feel that a parent has the right to choose the best person to look after their dc whether they are registered, registering or neither.

TotallyBS · 28/01/2013 18:21

Reet - Before you make fun of other people you should ensure you aren't talking out of your arse.

HMRC's ruling is that if someone works for you for more than x hours then that person is deemed to be an employee. This is to prevent employers hiring someone full time and then refusing to pay employers NI, pay sick leave, provide annual leave etc.

The nature of the job is that CMs don't work enough hours to qualify as a full time employee hence the self employed situation.

The above knowledge comes from having employed 2 CMs and 4 nannies. In addition, DP and I run a small business. So, in ya face Reet.

InNeedOfBrandy · 28/01/2013 18:26

just because I love the in ya face comment

TotallyBS · 28/01/2013 18:31

Zoo - what is the source of your aggression? Did I dump on you in another thread?

Your aggressive questioning aside, the mom looked after our kids after school. Once she got her paperwork sorted we made it formal complete with contract.

After a while our work commitments were such that we hired a nanny complete with CRB, NIC and the complete works.

TotallyBS · 28/01/2013 18:35

High 5 InNeed.

ZooAnimals · 28/01/2013 18:55

'The nature of the job is that CMs don't work enough hours to qualify as a full time employee hence the self employed situation.'

That is absolute crap.

ZooAnimals · 28/01/2013 18:56

'Zoo - what is the source of your aggression?'

I don't like people who tax evade.

MaryPoppinsBag · 28/01/2013 19:05

Some CM do 40 hour weeks for their families though. So TotallyBS your explanation doesn't make sense.

Childminders are self employed because they run their own businesses. Nothing to do with the hours they work.
They provide a service for many different families like a pre-school or nursery does and parents pay for that service. And are not employed by anyone.

Not being aggressive just saying.

TotallyBS · 28/01/2013 19:17

We sacked our CM because she wasn't nice to my kids. We couldn't find another one. A mom that we knew from the school offered to help. Rather than take advantage of her we offered her what we was paying the CM. She then decided she wanted to be a 'proper' CM so she did the paperwork inc CRB and the job became 'official' ie I paid the money into her bank once a week.

I have absolutely no idea whether she declared the income but what has that got to do with me? I mean, if your waitress doesn't declare her tips then should I flame you?

My situation was similar to the OPs so I thought that I share my experience. If you want to turn this into bun fight about imagined tax evasion then I'm not playing.

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