Potential Spanish nanny - some questions!

[AspirantPirate]

Picking the collective mumsnet brain again!

A bit of background: we are looking for a nanny for the first time as I am starting full-time work (after 9 years as a SAHM). I will be a trainee solicitor. We have decided on a nanny for our 3 (school age) sons because we really need someone to care for them until around 7-7.30pm. We cannot have an au pair because we do not have enough room at home.

Having been interviewing people this week we have realised that prospective nanny's expectations as to salary are higher than we had expected (they are quoting net rather than gross hourly rate). We can stretch to it if we have to but it would mean that for the duration of my two year training contract I will be using up my entire salary to cover the cost of the nanny (c'est la vie - I have to do it to qualify as a solicitor, after which my salary will be much higher).

However, this morning we interviewed a young Spanish woman who has moved over here for the next two years to improve her English. She was perfect for us, she has bags of experience with school-age kids (though no nannying experience) and we really 'clicked' with her. And, without wanting to sound cynical, her salary expectations were much lower. She is not here to earn her fortune, but to improve her English, and is currently working for minimum wage in a fast food restaurant.

As I mentioned, I will be working as a solicitor and my husband is also a solicitor. It is essential for our careers that we employ someone fairly and properly. The last thing we want or need is to be accused of unfairness and exploitation, or for having made any mistakes with tax, employer's liability etc. So, questions:

1. Is it fair to offer her the lowest 'going rate' for nannies in our area, given that she has no previous nannying experience? This would be about £8 an hour gross, giving her an increase of about 30% on her current income. We absolutely do not want to be ripping her off, but have to be realistic about what is comfortably affordable for us. Paying at this rate would mean that I would have enough left over from my salary to start paying off my (large) study loan without us actually making a loss from me being at work.
2. Are there any extra issues attached to employing someone who is not a UK national? She is from within the EU and so would not need any permit, but would there be any difference in tax code, or employer's liability insurance, or the nanny's public liability insurance? Or anything else that we haven't even thought of? We are trying to gauge the real cost to us of employing her before we actually make an offer.

Sorry - that was long! Thanks in advance for any advice!

have you picked this nanny because she's the cheapest? or because she's the best? if your 3 children are all school age, do you really need a 7 - 7.30 nanny or could you have a 7 - 8.30 / 3 - 7.30 nanny and pay accordingly? there are plenty of eg preschool teachers who can do additional hours to do that, or someone older who doesn't want full time work. We had an amazing temp nanny who went back home during school time so she could walk her dog. You might find you can get someone perfectly well qualified (& Ofsted registered so you can both use up your childcare voucher allowance) for less overall than this Spanish girl who you would be paying what's a pittance for a nanny salary (£8 net is pretty much the bare min round my way)

PS her current salary in a fast food restaurant is irrelevant to what nanny pay is, as are your salary and student loans.

In greater London and have paid before £8 gross to a non-UK nanny who had 1 year's experience in an EU country. She was also very happy to be "rescued" from McD! I don't think it's an unreasonable pay, especially for full time hours that an hourly rate adds up to a decent annual amount.

You might find that after a while she starts talking to others, feels unhappy and starts asking for a payrise, but that could happen with anyone. I think you just have to pay what you can afford, and be a good employer in all other ways - time keeping, paying on time, accommodating holidays etc.

As far as I know, no special issues/liability in employing non-UK nationals.
Don't skip checking their references though, get a Spanish speaker to talk to references in Spain if necessary.

No, because we like her the best. She will be working 12.30pm until 7pm or 7.30 pm. Sorry, that was misleading.

And her current salary is not irrelevant. Anyone looking for a new job would weigh up the offer against what they are currently receiving. And my salary is relevant because it is what will be paying hers.....

But basically what you are saying is that £8 per hour gross is not a fair rate? Because it isn't clear from your response.

Previous post in response to BobbiFleckman...

If i'm hiring you as a newly qualified solicitor, your previous salary as a secretary in a PR firm (or whatever) is utterly irrelevant. Different jobs attract different salaries. My cleaner was a civil engineer in Poland - I don't pay her a civil engineer wage because it's not relevant to cleaning work. Looking after three children (plus your house) for 12.5 hours a day is rather more involved and demanding work than flipping burgers and should be remunerated accordingly.
If you want to hire a nanny to work extremely long hours, either you can afford it or you can't - a nanny working for nicola horlick or Xenia doesn't get paid more because they're earning megabucks, so yes, I think your (temporarily low) salary shouldn't be relevant. Your husband is also a solicitor - if your combined wages can't cover a 12.5 hour / day nanny salary then you need to look at alternatives rather than taking someone for a bit of a ride on their job.

Novstar, thank you. She has already given us excellent letters of introduction from previous employers and voluntary organisiations she has worked for in Spain. And yes, we have every intention of being good employers in every way!

We have also considered the possibility of a future payrise, which is why we wanted to start as low as we felt was fair. Until I start working it is very difficult to know with accuracy what my take-home pay and work expenses will actually be. I want to be sure that we can afford a higher rate of pay - if we can, once I have settled into work, we will be happy to offer it to her.

Bobbi, I am not employing her for 12.5 hours a day, I would be employing her for 7 hours a day.

ah, i misread your 7 - 7.30 as 7am to 7.30pm

Well, I did just what you are considering. i employed a foreign nanny, who I have paid less than a lot of the experienced nannies in the area charge. I can 100%, hand on heart say that I employed her because she was soooo lovely when she came to interview (and has been ever since) and not because she was cheaper. I will not be working from October, and she is moving back home, but if she was staying, I would definitely have given her a pay rise, despite the fact that some months she costs (she doesn't earn, she costs) me more than I earn (once employers NI contributions are paid). She has been absolutely fabulous.

I have sometimes felt a bit mean for paying her less than the going rate for experienced nannies, but this is because she has been so good. As I say - would definitely have raised her pay after her first six months if she was planning to stay.

I initially spoke to Nanny agencies and they suggested an hourly rate for someone who had childcare experience, but who had not nannied before (our nanny mainly had experience through looking after nieces and nephews and a bit of teaching) and so that is the figure I offered. I agree that her current pay etc are irrelevant (although it might make you feel a bit better) but if she has not nannied before, I don't really see the problem in offering her a figure on the lower end of the local scale.

I think it is so important to go on your gut feeling. This is someone who is going to be in your home, who will be so important to your children etc. If you liked her, why not offer the £8 and see how it goes. You may find you appreciate her so much that you feel compelled to raise her pay anyway, despite the expense!

Not sure about the non UK bit. Our nanny came with her work visa and NI number so that was easy. An amazing service called Zest Payroll solutions has sorted all the pay and tax stuff for me (recommended on here) so maybe you could contact them? The lady is AMAZING!

Do make sure you are factoring in your NI contributions to your calculations AND maybe consider sending her on a pediatric first aid course. We had to do something about making sure housing insurance covered someone working in the house. Also you need to pay statutory sick pay/ maternity pay/ holiday pay and write a proper contract, but I assume as a trainee solicitor and qualified solicitor you would be able to cope with that!

That was a bit long.

I think you'll find a nanny does get a lot more working for the likes of Nicola Horlick actually, since they would be working far longer hours and probably much harder!

OP doesn't need to pay top whack nanny wages to someone who has no qualifications or experience as a nanny. They can come to a mutually fair agreement to the both of them.

I think you'll find a nanny does get a lot more working for the likes of Nicola Horlick actually, since they would be working far longer hours and probably much harder!

OP doesn't need to pay top whack nanny wages to someone who has no qualifications or experience as a nanny. They can come to a mutually fair agreement to the both of them.

themymble - thanks, that is really helpful! And yes, we are the same. This woman was by far the best 'fit' for us from the people we have seen. Also, can I ask what it cost per month to use the payroll provider?

Penis (great name) yes, mutually fair is what we are looking for. I just wanted to get a feel for what others would consider 'fair'. I need to sleep at night - the last thing I want is to feel that I am exploiting someone's situation!

£8 an hour is more than fair for someone who has no childcare qualifications or nanny experience - she is very lucky to find a nanny job, most people in her position would probably get mother's help (£6-£8 an hour), unqualified nursery assistant (£6.10 max depending on her age) or au pair (less than min.wage) jobs.

It is £15 per month iirc. The reason it is so good is that you pay per month, rather than a yearly rate as per nanny tax. You may have to pay a certain amount for her to do the setting up stuff (registering as an employer etc) - I had already done some of that when I started using her, but I did call her in an absolute flap, a few days before my annual tax something or other was supposed to be in and she just sorted everything out. I payed her a one off amount for that - worth every penny, not least because i avoided the fine!

themymble thanks, we'll look into that!

£8 gross is more than I have got in some previous nanny jobs - and I was qualified and had childcare experience but not much full-day nannying experience. So I feel it's fine to offer that. I'm not in London but am 25miles away.

I think this is a fair arrangement and if you are both happy, why not? But if her primary purpose is to learn English, is she going to have time during the day to go to college? Does she already live near you or is she going to have massive travel costs?

Personally I would go for it, providing you get good references. Your children are not babies any more, so you need someone nice and responsible. For me childcare qualifications would no longer be essential.

Wow I wasn't aware that £8 gross was considered to be a fair nanny wage - I thought £8 net was considered rock bottom! But we are in London, where are you OP? The only thing that I would consider is that if she really isn't earning much she will have little incentive to stay with you - for us, continuity was important and so we pay more (currently £9.50 net which I still feel is a bit low). Our nanny is also Spanish. It does take all of my earnings but that would also be the case if I was a SAHM and I look on it as an investment for the future. Also, for 3 kids surely you couldn't find anything cheaper, you would be paying less than £3/hour per child. For me, I needed to feel that I was paying her a fair wage for what is tough work, with much more responsibility than MacD or bar work (which our nanny was doing before).

Ok, quite a range of responses there! Thank you, it is all helpful. As I said, we are completely new to this and on a pretty steep learning curve, so it's really helpful to know other people's experiences.

SoldeInvierno we chatted about this during her interview. She is studying online and was very positive about the hours we are asking for (lunchtime through till evening) as she is flexible in her learning, but this would mean that she had a regular time of day during which to study. I think any working time is 'practice' time for her, as well as to earn money. And yes, as you say, we don't need someone who knows how to care for babies and young children, but someone to supervise and support our children, and to help with some basic housework to keep things ticking over.

chocolatecrispies we are in Bristol. The going rate here seems to be £7-10 net. We interviewed one local girl who asked for £7.50 net per hour, which is about £8.90 gross. £7.00 net is roughly £8.25 gross. Yes, we have considered the possible issues with regards to her sticking around - this is part of the reason for asking the question! And no, it wouldn't be cheaper to use another kind of chidcare for 3 kids, which is why we settled on the idea of a nanny in the first place. But the pay issue, now we are actually looking at it properly, has turned out to be a whole load more complicated than we has anticipated - hence the question! As I've said, our concern is to do the 'right thing'. We are new to this and us screwing it up will not do anyone any good.... However, out of the people we have seen, we think she is the most likely to stick around. She was genuinely keen and very enthusiastic about the position.

She is a bright, sensible young woman so I think we can reach an agreement that we are all happy with.

One other thing that occurred to me last night was holiday. Am I right thinking that 20 days is standard? Because my husband has an excellent holiday entitlement and we could offer her more than that, as well as 10 days or so off over Christmas (my husband's office closes between Christmas and New Year, so he gets that on top of his already generous holiday entitlement). Would this make it fairer / more attractive? The only condition she gave during the interview was that she would have time to visit her family at Christmas, so this could be worth a lot to her? I am thinking aloud....

Please don't jump down my throat - as I've said, these are genuine questions aimed at reaching the right / fair balance!

I think it seems perfectly reasonable. You can pop a salary review I'm her contract after 6 months and then discuss again then. Legally you must give her 28 days holiday (including bank holidays).

I am in Bristol too and don't know any nannies earning £10 net an hour! £10 gross maybe if qualified/experienced - though many experienced nannies are on £8 gross.

the salary seems fair and more then what she earns now and def over nmw so no probs there

def go on gut instinct rather then cheapness

regards holiday, its 28days pro rota so if 5 days then 28 days, which is generally 20 days as in 4 weeks and all bank hols, but doesnt have to be, as long as 28 pro rota iyswim

dont offer now but maybe put in contract that if you take more holiday then your 2 weeks then the nanny will have the time off and paid - thus covering your back

and yes that attractive, my last few nanny jobs ive had 11/12weeks off paid

Again, thanks for the replies. Rubirosa that is hugely reassuring :)

As for holiday, yes I meant minimum 20 days plus bank holidays, plus we can also guarantee her the time off between Christmas and New Year in addition, which would give her 38-40 days a year in total as paid holiday.

Thanks again, this is all genuinely helpful.

No advice re the nanny but just wanted to wish you the very best of luck with your training contract. I know how daunting it can be going back into the workplace as a "mature" trainee solicitor, having done so myself not do long ago. In my case I was a single mum and the DCs were only 2 and 4 so I had to move back to near my own parents to find reliable childcare at an affordable cost. I was really anxious about the training contract - what the hours would be, whether the children would suffer, etc. - but it was fine (though hard work). Better than that, now the DCs are older I have got a job at a fantastic firm and feel I have a real opportunity ahead of me (I am 2 PQE now). In my experience so far - both at the regional firm I trained at and at the City firm I now work at - people are quite understanding about the occasional having to leave a bit early or come in a bit later (as long as it is only occasional) because of something child-related, as long as you do your job well and hit your hours most of the time. Best of luck with it, I'm sure you will relish it once you have found the right childcare.