Where are the nice families hiding?! I don't want to beg for my tax please....

[Aninanny]

Hi there. I have been in child care in the past 9-10yrs and have excellent references and still keeping in touch with the families, children... Never left a job, never been fired and luckily things always went ok and always managed to find nice employers and lovely childen :) But not this time... I am currently working but kids starting school from Sept so I already started looking for a new position to start from September. /I won't be available for interviews in August so have to do it before/ I went for 2 interviews so far .... 1st I met a lovely mom and she said before the interview that she will need 4 days /40hours/ and on the interview she actualy told me she would only need 3days.... so I can't do that and felt a bit unhappy.... why did I had to go there in the first place she shoud of told me before... the 2nd interview was nice /nanny share/ untill we mentioned money.... She asked me my salary expectation and I told her what i was getting in the past 2yrs /normal pay for my area/ and she said that is too much she didn't tell me how much she is thinking to pay , I tried to ask her abour 3 times... she said she has to talk to the other mom and think about budget etc... Anyoane have a good idea how much is fair for a nanny share in west London??? honestly I just try to find a nice employer who is looking for a nice nanny! Nothing special really , I love kids, very energetic, never been unfair to any family I ever worked for and simly asking for a family who is kind, don't want to under pay and willing to pay my tax and Ni. sometimes people send me mgs about tax and when i tell them they have to pay it they kind of shocked... :( I simly want to do everything legaly right so I will be able to get a mortgage in the future etc... I am married and happy where I live and want to find a good job in my area ... I know everyone having a hard time but if you want to employ someone you have legal responsibilities. I love the fact that families asking for so many things now in an add: sometimes 2languages,lot of experience, 2-3 references, Crb,driving licence,good cook,swimmer,love of animals etc...which is fine but when you just simply ask for 2things: normal pay for your area and tax ....that's when it starting to go all wrong... I have to kind of beg for my tax which is very unconfortable and hate doing it!Seems slightly unfair and not sure what to do.......

I would consider myself to be one of these nice mums - was also offering a 40 hour job over 4 days but am often priced out of hiring nannies because of what I can afford based on using my WHOLE salary to cover childcare. Part of the problem is that nannies quote salaries in net. By the time I gross that up vs my net/take home salary, I am really struggling, so I have to be able to offer jobs to nannies with fewer years experience and only take on more experienced nannies for short term cover and just suck up the expense. I know that I just have to accept the situation in general and that my childcare for all 3 kids (more than just a nanny) eats my entire salary (which will hopefully increase in a couple of months) at the moment, because in a few years' time, they will be older and all in school and I will hopefully be earning more.
Having said that, I think there needs to be a bit more flexibility from some nannies in terms of salary expectation where some are quite rigid about what they want - for example if a job is full time, being flexible about £ per hour on the basis that overall salary will be better than a part time job. There has to be some room for negotiation.

RE: the tax, I've ended up going self employed & proxy parenting / holiday nannying (as SO many families who wanted a long term live in nanny, wouldn't pay tax) ... and now I've got work coming up at 750 gross a week.

Is that an option for you?

Of course, I can see where are you coming from Medjool and I do agree but if a family know they can't afford an experienced nanny+ tax than I'm sorry but don't have one. I don't try to be rude but it would be easier for me too to know if smeone doesn't want to pay my tax before I go for an interview. Every company expected to pay properly and legally and only because Nannies working for private families it doesn't mean families can take advanteges on that! And I know lots of mums who can't afford a full time help so they end up with an au pair or part time help....etc... but being cheaky about tax and offering very low salary.... Everyone would choose better paid jobs not just nannies! I choose to be a nanny almost 10 yrs ago and no I simply don't want a lower salary in my area ....why would I? If everyone gets £10/hour /less experience nannies too/ than of course I would like to get the same. Not £8.hour for example... Because I always stay for long term so it does matter! And yes I am open and flexible or try but not easy.:)

Proxy parenting??? Hmmm... I guess you need to be very flexible and it's not really a full time position....Where do you advertise? Interesting.... Glad it's working for you.:)

Just to clarify, I'm absolutely not condoning not paying tax. Personally, I have to look for nannies with 2-4 years experience to be able to afford it. I'd love to be able to afford more and it is absolutely necessary for me to have a nanny to juggle my family's needs, so I have to find a way to make it work - which never involves not paying tax.

Whilst I see exactly what you are saying, when a mother is employing a nanny, given the choice between £400 for someone with 10 years experience and £320 for someone with maybe just one or two year's experience, then a lot of people are going to go for the £320 role. It's only natural that they will be wanting to see if you are flexible enough to enable them to employ you at that rate, not the less experienced person.

I imagine that salaries for nannies will drop over the next few years, because the number of roles will I think fall quite a bit. and that's happening because (1) recession has meant redundancies for parents, so less jobs in the market (2) the pressures at work have been increasing on those that remain after all these redundancies, meaning work is no longer as enjoyable for many, (3) lots of mums are part time and are very aware that this gives them considerable disadvantages re career ladder, which have become more pronounced during recession, and (4) likelihood of pay rises and bonuses have receded over last few years, making work a less financially attractive option.

Whilst I have no doubt that you are worth £10 an hour and that there are lots of nannies in your area earning £10 an hour, if that is the salary you want them you will have to look for longer to get it, and accept that many families will not take you on because of this. What you got in your last role may simply not be 'normal pay' any more.

As for not paying tax, that's inexcusable and you should be reporting such families to your agency. And if your agency isn't pulling the families up on this, then you are with the wrong agent.

By the way: I would be surprised if a nanny in interview asked about pay or tax during the interview. Those discussions are generally at job offer stage, and I'd be put off a nanny who did this. I was interviewing candidates on Monday (for something totally different -nothing to do with nannying) and in our summary of why we rejected one particular candidate we actually listed the fact that he'd asked what his salary would be during the interview. And asking about tax during an interview implies you are suspicious of your potential employers. I'd leave such discussions until the point at which they have decided they want you and have already mentally dismissed all the other candidates.

I would also suggest that if it's not possible to find a family who will pay tax then you either have to increase your rate and do the tax yourself or accept that for the area you work in that your rate is too high and you have to include tax within it. It does sound like you'll be better off making your own tax arrangements.

medjool - that's not allowed for full-time nannies. - HMRC are usually very strict about insisting that nannies are PAYE'd. Setting up as a limited company to offer nanny services would get round it but costs and resources needed to support that would probably not be worth it given gross income levels.

OP, I think you just have to keep on trying and going for more interviews. In my NCT group, most of us are going back to work sept/oct, we are looking for nannies and thinking about paying 10-12 net per hour and paying for the tax on top of course.

Exactly what area are you in? I am in Surrey (Hampton Court) and haven't seen one nanny advertises for less than 10 net per hour.

And also my potential nanny is hoping to work 3 days for us and 2 days for another family. I think quite a lot of mums are working part time now, so may be don't rule out a nice family who wants you part time, might be you can find another family for the rest of the days?

Squiffy, I disagree. Pay is in my view pre interview stage. It is at the job advertising stage - wastes people's time if salary or at least a salary range is not indicated in the job.

All nanny jobs I have had I have known the salary on offer prior to interview.

Is this the Net v Gross thing again I wonder. Nanny wants £10 per hour but later on parents find out nanny wants that net of tax, not as gross salary?

MrsM - in other fields, least the one's I have worked in the job advert has included actual salary, or pay grade (such as civil service job) with grade salary range shown.

"in our summary of why we rejected one particular candidate we actually listed the fact that he'd asked what his salary would be during the interview."

StillSquiffy - that is interesting. I'm not sure you are right, though. Why should candidates go through rounds of interviews just to find out right at the end of the process that the money isn't enough to make the job move worthwhile?

Yet in nannying there are some jobs which don't even specify a region. I am surprised nannies even bother applying for those - if I was looking for a job I my first question to the advertiser would be what is the salary range they have in mind - as I have bills to pay... waste of my time and theirs if the job won't pay me enough to cover my usual day-to-day spending (mortgage, council tax, utility bills, car costs, you know all the usual stuff).

Piemaker... I'm 11 miles by road from Hampton Court, less than 9 miles as bird flies. Here £10-£11 Gross is quite typical for an experienced live-out nanny. So those 10 or so miles seems to make a £2 ish difference in hourly salary. Further in to London it goes up more.

The London premium seems to start at the M25 these days, though why should nannies in one part of Surrey be paid more than another part of Surrey? Market forces are at work I suspect - in some areas over the last few decades parents may have had more income to use towards childcare, where as now I'm not sure that is still the case.

I think a lot more jobs these days are part time. I've been doing what nannies call part-time for the past 8 years. My mortgage company considers my job to be full-time... they do it on hours, not days it seems. The problem though with part-time jobs is that the hours may not always be enough for the nanny to pay their own bills, thus the need to have two part-time jobs. Thus I like 4 day a week jobs, I find that is enough to cover the bills without needing to take on another days work.

Not paying tax is not on.

Sounds like you are too expensive for your local market, as squiffy highlights, and need to get real or move somewhere with better paid opportunities.

Squiffy I would have thought pay would be discussed before the first interview tbh. Reading a CV, inviting someone for 1 or maybe 2 interviews, introducing them to your kids, checking references, feeling they're the one for you, offering them a job and then finding you can't afford what they want/they won't take less seems like an awful waste of everyones time!

I think it's the markets. Parents are being squeezed by increases in taxes and living costs which is not being matched in their incomes. And, there are lots of EU candidates willing to work for a lot less than £10 net per hour.

I am starting to look for a new au pair and notice how very many Spanish candidates there are now.

I think the taxes parents have to pay on their own income is the problem.

Thanks every1 , really helpfull and try to understand every1s point here...! Really!!! :)

1.: Being too expensive for my local area: I have been working in my local area in the past 5 yrs and totally aware of current rates and know other nannies rates as I have lots of nanny friends /from play groups etc.../:) So I did my market research because I totally agree, I have to ask for the right money not more but not less!I could take on a job with lower salary but after 10yrs it is not easy and i am not that desparate and hoping!:) I always been unlucky and have to tell you a sad story but very helpfull as I aleady helped for a few fellow nanny friends and best to put it up here. Probably you will understand why I am slightly worried about tax and right pay etc...

2.: StillSquiffy :) Buy the way I usually don't ask how much is the salary the parents ask what is my salary exp. which is totally normal for an interview but personally those who don't mention about it usually very strange to me because in the end of the day this is why I am coming for an interview. I am getting my cv ready, preparing myself, Crb ready, References ready, Starting date sorted so I am prepared! Hovewer I like to know everything about my job, kids,chores and yes what they are looking for to pay is totally an important part of an interview! And I don't ask if they going to pay my tax I ask how they would like to pay my tax /nanny tax., suggest a good recommended company if they interested etc..../ Because of bad experience I have to mention it. If I was going to work for a school /my hubby does/ I wouldn't ask because is totally normal but with private families you just simply never know!!!

A Little story....It was in the beginning of my career as a full time live in nanny. I was living in a lovely town and had to travel up to London for 3 interviews. I remember all 3 very well. They all wanted to employ me in the end but I got the first call after my interviews and I accepted it as they seemed really nice, happy family! I was so happy too , they alwas treated me nice and never had any kind of issues with them. Mom had a great job, dad was a lawyer. I met my future hubby we got engaged and so I moved out/I was a full time live in nanny/ but still had a strong relationship between the kids + parents.I Went back to see them many times, took them out for lunch etc..., had a great afternoons with the kids not like a nanny but like the family's friend..... Really lovely memories.
A few year later I had an accident and couldn't work ... Anyway I decided to sort out my tax and I went to my accountant... He gave me a phone number to call HMR for an EMPLOYMENT HISTORY!!! So I did. Just to remind everyone I had all my pay slips from this family /proper ones/ and got my P45 too when I left. She gave me a very good reference too! So I had no doubts about my tax! However I got my EMPLOYMENT HISTORY which is took few minutes and cost nothing to ask for and I was shocked, upset, sad and ungry at the same time. I actually cried /not self pitty just emotional after many yrs of friendship with this family... :(/and didn't belive that this family didn't pay my tax for almost 2yrs. they only payed for 8 months and they stopped paying it. It was hard to belive cause i had payslips etc so I asked my accountant + phoned HMR again + asked for a written E. History too. So I got the proof they didn't pay. I contacted this family and she siad ,,I swear we paid it all... and I will contact my accountant''. But she never got back to me. I texted her twice about it. She never got back to me since :(((
So sadly what happens is they set up an account but if they simply stop paying it you wouldn't know. Her accountant or nanny tax company make the payslips but the employer have to pay the tax /like a bill/ every month. If your employer stop paying it you simply wouldn't know if she keeps giving you your pay slips. Sad story but ever since I gave this numbe to a few of my friend... some found out the same sadly :((( So no matter how lovely a family you simply have to be carefull and best is to start to be carefull on the interview. If they wouldn't mention tax or salary I would simply think it's must be dodgy! No garantee even if they do mention it!

The direct number for your employment history is:013 5535 9022 (they will ask for your Ni number, name and address...) Sorry for the lots of info but I had to tell this.... :)

Just to answer those querying - yes of course we give salary ranges in our adverts (and quite specific ones, too - eg "our range is from X if you have no experience in this field up to Y if you can evidence clear expertise in this field, supported by strong references").

I can believe those that say that salary range is not given sometimes in nannying jobs, but if that is the case then I would be asking if the agency were doing their job properly, and I certainly wouldn't attend an interview. Interviews are for exploring if someone is the right fit for the job. The basics of salary, benefits etc should be outlined at advert stage, and clarified at offer stage (as I said, by this time they have already mentally dismissed all the other candidates, so you can be much more confident about being clear about what you want). If a range isn't even indicated in a nanny job, you can bet it is going to be too low.

So, what happened then... Enquiring minds want to know.

Did you report them?
Did HMRC collect?

I am assuming you did not have to pay the tax, since you have payslips and it is the employers responsibility to extract the money from your paycheque and pay it.

I didn't paymy tax after this as I was an employee and she didn't payed it in after our chat over the phone.... :( I could reported her and easily prove that I was not just working but actually living there as a live in nanny /bills, GP, bank statements, etc/ but i didn't wanted to. We lost contact which is not nice /for the kids and me/ but there is no way I would go back and pretend nothing happened. So I learned my lesson and try to give this number for every1 /especially for nannies but really everyone!/ just incase. I know there must be some nice employers out there who wouldn't do this in a million years but you! I know someone who phoned this number and found out that his company /small company with only few employees/ didn't payed his Ni and tax so he left the job after 3 yrs..../ So it can happen with anyone really... :( But lets be positive and try to find a good1 this time!!!:))) And thanks all the comments, found them very helpfull! x

Aninanny, if they gave you a P45 when you left, how exactly did HMRC not catch on earlier?

there is a form on HMRC where youcan ask for a statement of you NIC , not sure about taxes.

btw i wasted so much time, money and energy going for interviews where it became clear that the family is not willing to pay through books. so i also ask the families or say i am only happy to be employed legally.