Do childminders normally ask for holiday pay?

[G1nger]

I'm interested in a local childminder, but on the website it says she takes 6 weeks holiday every year and that parents are expected to pay 50% of the daily costs throughout this. Is this normal? Seems a bit cheeky to me...

mercibucket - surely you do? Do you really expect us to believe that you don't factor time off into your hourly rate?

My old cm used to do this and I found it really hard. At the time I was a single mum and also self-employed so received no holiday/sickness pay. It was a tricky situation as I couldn't afford to pay someone else to look after dd while I was already paying for cm but equally couldn't afford to take 2 weeks off work as mine was the sole income. It was a very tricky juggling act!

I stuck with her for a while because she was really nice and a great childminder but eventually I had to enrol dd in a nursery where holidays weren't an issue.

I don't charge for my hols (charge when I'm available), but maybe my daily rate is higher to compensate?

However ... some CMs who do not charge holidays can then not afford to take holidays ... you are the leaving your child with a carer who may not have had a break at all for the last 3 yrs and probably needs a break to offer the best quality care.

Has OP said whether she is charged when she is on holiday? When my parents are away, they are charged full fee, because I am still available. Some CMs charge 50% for their hols and 50% for parents hols, which works out about the same amount of money as my deal.

Unfortunately it does seem to be normal practice. How on earth you're supposed to cover 6 weeks hols if you only get 4 weeks is beyond me. And paid too, very cheeky.

But it is in her t&cs. If you don't like it go elsewhere I'm afraid, if people are willing to pay then she will charge.

As others have suggested, look at your total annual costs, and whether the service offered works for you, and if you can't afford, don't want to pay it or don't like the terms, go elsewhere. Even if she is more expensive than others, she may be worth it. I don't really see how it is cheeky - now if she somehow disguised the fact that she would be taking this holiday, that would be cheeky. As for how you cover six weeks absence, most people get more than four weeks leave, and most children have two parents, and possibly extended family.

if people are willing to pay then she will charge

People aren't willing to pay, they are forced into it because of the probably illegal cartels that childminders operate, and then suffer financial hardship like runtybunty because of it.

Can you tell I am passionate about this? If childminders want to be treated as professionals they should operate in a professional manner, and demanding payment for offering no service is simply not professional.

most people get more than four weeks leave

Do you have any statistics that back that up? I believe the majority of workers get exactly that, the statutory minimum (plus bank holidays which is a whole other can of worms).

most children have two parents

That's pretty hard on the many children that don't - and working single parents need all the breaks they can get IMHO, not extra pressure.

and possibly extended family.

... or possibly not. You think it is okay to offer a service that discriminates against single parents without extended families?

Do you think you could change your statement to some childminders, mr anchovy because you are mistaken in your assumption that all cm's charge for their holidays.

Hey mr anchovy, I'm with you, I hated it which is why I'm so pleased to be out of it. Holiday clubs aren't perfect but I don't feel I'm being conned now.

Don't get me wrong, my childminders were all great, two of them good friends, and my children adored (and still adore) them but you can't have it all ways.

If childminders want to be treated as professionals they should operate in a professional manner, and demanding payment for offering no service is simply not professional.

Absolutely. Totally agree. Childminders should not charge for their holidays under any circumstances.

'You think it is okay to offer a service that discriminates against single parents without extended families?'

Surely by charging anything for a service you are discriminating against someone who won't be able to pay your fees?! We are operating businesses, not charities!

Personally I take 4 weeks paid leave (as was recommended by NCMA when I became a CM, not by some illegal cartel ) and charge full fees for parents holidays. I'm sure other minders nearby take more/less leave and charge full/half/nothing - as is their choice, and perhaps reflects how 'in demand' they are? Its a free market economy and parents are completely at liberty to choose my service or not. Luckily I provide an excellent service and I have no problem finding mindees and have a long waiting list.

If mindees leave any I have taken more holidays than pro-rata I've been entitled to then I would reconcile this with their final bill - hardly rocket science!

That's very cheeky, as presumably if you cannot take the equivalent time off you would then need to pay for alternative childcare elsewhere which results in a very expensive time for you.

CMs I know take unpaid holidays BUT do charge full price if the parents take hols (outside of CMs hols) this is so they 'keep the place open' for the child.

Most parents then take the same hols as the CM, so don;t have to pay.

I think its really cheeky and its one reason I wouldn't use a childminder - I might try the holiday pay thing too (I'd self employed). Most employees wouldn't get six weeks holiday.

Mr Anchovy - as you see fit to quote me I will reply

most people get more than four weeks leave

Do you have any statistics that back that up? I believe the majority of workers get exactly that, the statutory minimum (plus bank holidays which is a whole other can of worms).

Of course I don't have statistics so will withdraw my observation. Surely we can agree that every employee should have at least 4 weeks plus bank holidays and that many have more than this, particularly if you include those in part time work, education, flexible working arrangements etc?

most children have two parents

That's pretty hard on the many children that don't - and working single parents need all the breaks they can get IMHO, not extra pressure.

I don't think that is, or was intended to be, hard on anyone. Simply stating that most children have two parents is merely suggesting that by sharing childcare responsibilities a lot of families can have more childcare options.

and possibly extended family.

... or possibly not. You think it is okay to offer a service that discriminates against single parents without extended families?

Again, not harsh on anyone - merely stating the fairly obvious. I don't have an extended family, but that's just life isn't it? Plenty do. I know lots of grandparents who look after young children.

I don't think it's okay to discriminate against anyone.

And I don't take six weeks leave myself, but I fail to see how this CM who does and is perfectly upfront and open about it is being discriminatory. Surely it's up to her to set terms which suit herself and not forget that she may also be doing her best to balance work and her own family needs. It's her job and she's presumably not in business to set the world to rights.

I think it's very healthy to have a range of childcare providers offering different services and different terms and conditions, and that this gives customers real choice. I think labelling people who do things differently to myself or my own preferred way of doing business as unprofessional and discriminatory would be out of order. That is why I defend this lady's right to make her choices even if they are not my own.

I would not agree to pay anything over the statutory minimum - what Mr A says.

AND I would not sign a contract that mentions paid holiday outright as that is ONE indicator of employed status. Ask her to adjust her rates to refelct the amount she's talking about.

AND I would also state that the holiday doesn't accure, the way an employee's would. So, if you give notice and she hasn't taken her holiday you don't owe her any time off.

I am self employed and do t charge for my holiday either. If however I worked in an area where this was normal practise,I've some cms do then I would charge the market rate and get paid holidays!

It's stupid to say that's cheeky, it's up to clients if they wish to sign up for this service or not.

may be cheeky but if parents are stupid enough to agree to it then?????

So in this instance she's working 46 weeks a year but charging for 49 (give or take)? So that's "cheeky" but charging an additional 6% on her hourly charge would be fine? Bear in mind that would probably mean paying more per hour every time you want an extra session here or there, and be careful what you wish for.

The OP has to decide whether she wants to sign up with this woman which means paying for hols. If it's common practice in the area and she won't be able to find anotehr CM who doesn't or whom she likes as much etc etc she may HAVE to accommodate the rquest in some way. I personally wouldn't sign a contract with someone who was supposed to be self-employed stating that I am paying for their holidays as this is one indicator of employed status and whatevr the NCMA says CMs should do HMRC way well take ANOTHER VIEW of her status. THe parents would then be at risk for back taxes. Not seeing the whole contract it's very difficult to say but with this holiday thing I wonder to what extent the NCMA has cherry picked certain benefits that ARE USUALLY due to employees and just stuck them into a contract that was supposed to be designed for self-employed people.

OP make sure you know what she is saying about sick pay as well.

Exactly minder jinx , again it's a bloody service industry and cms can charge what they like in any way they like! No one is holding a gun to parents heads. I charge £3.00 an hour per child with no holiday or sick pay so how does that make me greedy or unprofessional person??

I work to support my family and if the market rate allowed I would charge more and for my holidays as well.

Perhaps some on here work for fun or to fill their time? I don't I work for cold hard cash and make no apology for that.

So leelo1 excellent points

the body I don't think it is IN FACT entirely that simple. Employment status does matter and there are certain things that define you as an employee and conversely self-employed. But we haven't seen the rest of this woman's contract so we don't know.

We have contracts with suppliers at work which involve services based around their time and they cannot structure their contracts anyway they like for LEGAL reasons (whatever we'd be willing to do commercially.)

Nobody would call you greedy or unprofessional Thebody. Who would dare!

Why thank you minder jinx, am off now to wake up youngest mindee from sleep and shove her up next doors chimney! They pay well and u no us cms never miss a chance to make a fast buck.

OK, first of all may I apologise for implying that all childminders charge unfairly for holidays: many do not.

Now for 'illegal cartels'. At one time (before Ofsted came along), childminders were regulated by local authorities. Many authorities ran local support groups for childminders that met regularly: in some cases these groups may have discussed and agreed how much to charge, when to raise charges etc.. Such groups still exist, although with Ofsted now the regulator genrally have a different format - but if they were to fix prices in this way that would be illegal under competition law. It is not in general currently illegal for suppliers in the UK to agree among themselves common contractual terms (other than price) such as paid holiday, and it was wrong of me to imply that it is. However, if it is the case that most or all childminders in an area operate the same practice that is potentially unfair to parents, it can hardly be said that the parents have a choice: they have to pay up and put up or make other arrangements for childcare.

thebody you seem eminently fair and sensible to me: you charge a reasonable rate, and do not charge for holidays. I find this difficult to reconcile with some of your statements:

• this isn't about what is morally right or wrong
• Or is it just bankers who can shaft people?
• It isnt a crime yet is it to make as much money as possible I also work for myself: I would not work in a way which I would consider morally wrong, I would not set out to 'shaft' anyone (least of all a single parent) and although I want to make as much money as possible I would not seek to make money in a way which was unfair or exploitative. I think this is probably true of you too.

The NCMA no longer advise childminders to charge for holiday, they dodge the issue by stating 'Some childminders charge full fees ... some only charge half fees ... Others charge nothing at all'. Whether this is beacuse of external pressure, a change of legal advisor and thorough review and updating of the advice they provide, or some other factor I do not know.

Finally LadyHarrietDeSpook I think you are worrying unneccessarily about employment status: a childminder has enough clear 'badges of trade' to outweigh the anomaly of holiday pay, particularly if the contract does not allow for the payment of accrued holiday pay if a child leaves part-way through the year.