Childminders Contract - does this sound right?

[BiscuitCrumbs]

Hi - was wondering if anyone would be able to tell me is this sounds reasonable enough or is my CM taking the p*ss:

Parent or child being off sick: (Full fee)
CM's sickness: (1/2 fee)
Parent's occasional days off: (Full fee)
CM's annual holiday (Full fee): - she takes 6 weeks annual leave.
Parent / CM's holiday coinciding: (Full fee)
Public Holiday: (Full fee)

Does anyone else pay their CM's annual leave? I don't know whether or not I'm making a mountain out of a molehill or not, but I just have the feeling that somethings not quite right with this contract.

Would very much appreciate your thoughts on this.

It depends how much an hour she charges, you need to tot it up over the year. I think charging half fee for her sickness is a bit much, if she is unavailable then you would possibly have to pay an emergency nanny.
I never charged for my holidays or bank holidays as I was unavailable but many childminders do, I was more expensive per hour than some others, if its a dealbraker for you then look elsewhere, 6 weeks is a lot of cover for you to find.
All contracts can be negotiated, try offering her less holidays or an increased hourly rate, does she have a waiting list?

I would be at being expected to pay 6 weeks holiday! That's more than I (or DH) gets at work. As CMs are also self-employed I wouldn't expect to pay annual leave/sickness pay - i deal with freelance contracts on a daily basis at work and we don't pay holiday/sickness pay, as it's part of maintaining the distinction between freelance/employee. The terms your CM are asking for are what I would expect from a nanny (who is your employee).

Anyway, our CM doesn't charge for her holidays, public holidays or when she's sick. We pay full fees for our holidays and days when DS is sick (which I think is totally fair enough).

We're in North London btw.

omg that is shocking!

if my childminder charged this I wouldn't use her

her fees are -I cancel I pay
she cancels -I don't pay

she works bank holidays but charges time +1/2
if you don't use her on the bank hols then you pay standard rate -I use her though as I work bank hols

she doesn't work the week inbetween christmas and new year and doesn't charge for this week

she takes 2 weeks off in summer which she does charge for, but I can take 2 weeks during the year and only pay a retainer fee of 50%

childminders are self employed so sick pay and holiday pay are different -I can't believe she wants you to pay for her to have 6 weeks holidays

Thanks lesstalk - I pay her £60 p/w (little1 attends) Day1: 9-5pm Day2: 1-5pm Day3: 1-5pm. I'm not too sure if she has a waiting list or not. Nearly forgot to mention (d'uh) that it's 6 weeks annual leave per year and not all together at the one time (think I would end up in a small padded room)!

I personally think it's a bit much IMO - she has loads of little kids that she minds (all within the acceptable amount) - she must be making a fortune - but I do have to admit she is a fab CM - DD seems quite settled and happy, I'm probably being a bit of a meany - but everything is so expensive these days, obviously including child care :(

Thanks again for your thoughts on the matter :)

Theres no way I would agree to that contract. Full pay when you choose not to use a service on days you are contracted for is perfectly fine but self employed people dont get sick or holiday pay so she should put money aside to cover time she has off.

It is becoming more normal for childminders to charge for their holidays but I do think 6 weeks + bank holidays is way too much. As someone said, this will be a lot more than some people get themselves.

I would walk away from a childminder with these terms in her contract - but it sounds like you are already using her. It would have been wise to check the contracts before your child started with her. So now you could try to negotiate (which may leave a bad feeling - from her if she does compromise, or you if she refuses to) or you just have to suck it up.

Looking at your hours she charges £3.75 per hour. I don't know your area but how does this compare to other childminders per hour? As letstalk said, if she is cheaper than others when you tot it up over the year it may well be comparable.

my childminder doesn't get paid if she takes holidays or is off sick, but I pay if my daughter doesn't go for whatever reason, and this includes public holidays.

I also think you are getting a pretty good deal at £60 per week- i pay my child minder an extra £10 a week because she is fab, and this is still considerably less than nursery.

IMHO if childminders want to provide a professional service they should charge when they are available to provide that service, and not when they aren't.

Unfortunately many childminders are encouraged by their local networks (and previously the NCMA but they have now amended their standard contract) into all sorts of crazy things.

Any other arrangement impacts unfairly on people who use a childminder part time, but everyone can be affected- for instance in your case the 1/2 fee for childminder's sickness is particularly outrageous. In fact as soon as you start talking about sickness and annual leave, you are getting off the point. She is either open or closed for business, and she should only expect to be paid if she is open.

Having said all this, she is perfectly entitled to come up with whatever charges she wants: you need to weigh up whether she has sufficient other strengths and/or charges a low enough rate to compensate.

Thank you very much folks for all your comments, advice and helpfulness - I do have extending circumstances, which I would like to share with you all, but then I think I would be easily identifiable if I explained all. I've been up most of the night thinking about everything and I'm in such a bind - the CM in question is also a very good friend and she has helped me out above and beyond the call of any CM - but I'm just not very happy about this child minding contract. I completely agree that if the service isn't available - then I don't see why I should have to pay - my late husband was self employed and he wasn't paid for any annual leave or sick days taken - it's only now that I'm coming out of the end of a horrendously bad 2 years - I've not been able to think particularly straight and my thinking process IMO is still quite delayed.

I might perhaps delay things until after Christmas and the New Year and perhaps this will give me time to looking into changing CM's.

Once again, many thanks to everyone. xx

I would not be prepared to pay in full for more holiday than an employee in the UK is entitled to. This is 5.6 weeks (which I believe includes bank holidays.) From what you've said, I'm not sure whether your childminder is talking about charging for six weeks holiday PLUS all the bank holidays.

Anything in excess of what employees get should be unpaid, in my opinion.

I might agree to the rest of it if I liked her and her rates otherwise compared very favourably to other childminders.

When I used a childminder for my son she charged full pay for her 4 week holiday, full pay for my child's holidays, half pay for her illness and full pay for my child's illness. I did really resent paying her when she was on holiday/ill as I have no family support and I had to then pay another childminder to look after my child The reason I agreed to it was that when I added up the fees over the year it was still quite a bit less than a nursery and she was very conveniently located.

Now that I am a childminder I have decided not to charge for my holiday/illness but my hourly rates are slightly higher so actually we both cost about the same over the year.

My childminder has up to 5 weeks holiday a year, and we pay half fees. But her hourly rates are pretty much the lowest in our area, as much as £1 an hour less than other CMs. We don't pay for her illness or bank holidays though.

I charge like this:

Parent/child sickness - full fee
Childminder not available - nothing
Parent holiday full fee
Childminder holiday - nothing
Bank Hols - nothing as I don't work them
Notice period - 2 weeks' full payment from parent if they finish/ nothing if I finish but I still give 2 weeks notice.

I think that is fair although I have had only this week a parent quitting and giving me abuse when I asked for payment. She is going to get a letter this week to give her 14 days to pay as she refused to pay this week's payment in full.

As she is a cm she can set her own terms and conditions and there aren't really any 'norms' as every cm is different.

I charge full fees for parent/child holidays, sickness or unexpected days off.
I charge nothing for my sickness (have only had one day off which was when I was in hospital overnight with flu and suspected meningitis)
I charge half fees for my holidays, up to six weeks a year (usually four)
I also offer one week free after you have been with me a year :)

Parents know these terms and conditions and can chose not to use ke if they don't want to and try and find someone else. If honest, if parents had a proem with me charging half fees for my holidays I would stop but then increase my hourly/daily rate, so it would still be the same over the whole year!

I don't see where professionalism comes into it, to be honest. If a childminder states up front what he or she does or does not charge, it's really up to them what they do. You may not agree with their charges, but that doesn't make them unprofessional.

Childminders are in a different position to so many other self-employed professions in that they work for more than one client simultaneously. They also spend a good deal of that holiday time in childminding-related activities and much of their sickness is also due to illnesses brought in by the children.

It really is swings and roundabouts. What many people fail to appreciate is that in any self-employed capacity, you do charge in one way or another for your sickness and holidays. Either you state up front what your sickness and holiday rates are, as this childminder has done, or you factor them into your rate so that they are hidden and your rate is inflated accordingly, which is what I do. But then, of course, you get people moaning that your rate is higher than another childminder's.

Perhaps the real question should be "How would you prefer to pay for the childminder's holidays and sickness?" rather than "Should she be charging for her sickness and holidays?".

At the end of the day, it's entirely up to the childminder what she charges and it's entirely up to the client to decide if this is the best deal for them.

Biscuit, it sounds like you have had a terrible time, am so sorry to catch from your post about your husband, must be so tough for you and dcs.

fwiw I charge full fee for child sickness and holidays and no fee for my sickness or hols. i dont work bank hols at all. 4 weeks notice from either side for change to or termination of contract.

just a thought you said that the cm was a great friend who helped you a lot so I guess its up to you to weigh up whether you want to use her services and pay this if you can afford to or look elsewhere, if you decide the latter I would be up front with her and say why, she may not realise your feelings.

good luck.

Anyone think this is cheeky? I have business cards which i'm going to put on peoples' car windows who are parked in parent/child car bays at local supermarket and shopping centre, its really the only way I can think of getting any sort of work.

What would any of you do? Would you throw it away or keep it in case you needed it for future childcare or if you are cms would you pass it on to parents if you were full?

I am finding it increasingly difficult as many shops are not letting me advertise and even the school are funny about it. I have said the shop nearest to school will not let me put any postcards in and that is the one that parents go in.

Whilst i personally would never use a childminder, if I did it wouldnt be one through a flyer on my car sorry. Choosing childcare is so important that i'd always try and go with personal recommendations or with somebody I knew and had seen at work. I'd wonder why you had no work to resort to leafleting on cars.

BiscuitCrumbs - at £3.75 per hour for a maximum of 3 children at a time, she is certainly not making a fortune - £11.25 ph before tax isn?t going to make anyone rich.

I'm in London and charge by the day or half day rather than by the hour, and someone with the same hours you use would be paying £110 a week -£50 a full day, £30 a half day.

I think charging any fee for her sickness is unreasonable; so is expecting parents to pay full fee for six weeks holiday (however, presumably some parents are willing to do this, or she'd have no work).

Mum2Luke - no, I don't think it's cheeky, nor do I think it suggests desperation. Advertising is advertising, and we have to do it just like any other business. A childminder may have recently started up, or have vacancies for any number of reasons (a mindee's family moving house, a parent losing or giving up his/her job, mindee/s starting school etc)

I've found websites more effective than any other form of advertising though. My co-minder and I started minding at the beginning of September and are now almost full - only a couple of places remaining.

Almost all our families found us through childcare.co.uk, one through Netmums, and one through personal recommendation. Only one family found us as a result of one of the many Vistaprint postcards we put in shops, cafes etc

having , in the not too recent past, prepared annual accounts for child minders I found that the vast majority worked on the basis detailed below;

Full fee for any day that the childminder is available (Double time for bank holidays) - this to include days when THE CHILD is absent for holiday/sickness

No fee if the childminder is not available (whatever the reason)

child minders are self employed and as such do not get 'paid' if they do not work - however, many of them have built into their fee structure some value
accorded to their own 'holidays'.

MUMT2LUKE. its fine to advertise any way you can, running a business is alla bout getting clients and I even before I was a cm I would see this as a real go getting, sensible way to reach clients. whats the harm, they visit you and see references and either like or not.

like luckylou though all of mine have been through web site mentioned first and then personal recommendation.

best of luck to you.