worried about my nanny - bit long, sorry

[skaen]

I have a nanny for DD 3.5 and DS 18months. She has 2 children of her own - a DD of 6 and a DD of 3.11. She has looked after DD for 2 years and DS since I went back to work after ML.

There are a few things bothering me and I would like the MN verdict on them:

1. I have been back at work for 3 days per week for 4 months. In that time, the nanny has had 3 days off to deal with her children being ill and has called me home because one of mine is ill on a further 3 occasions. There are also fairly regular comments that one of them isn't right and if it were her children she'd be at home.

2. There are fairly regular comments about DD's behaviour. The latest incident was when nanny's DD was on the loo. DD was waiting and had an accident. The nanny was and is cross with my DD about this as she thinks it is deliberate. I think it was an accident. I also think overall, the nanny thinks we don't back her up on DD's behaviour. We do enforce good behaviour but might draw the lines in slightly different places. DD's behaviour is generally fine at home and at playgroup.

3. She seems generally a bit stressed and as though it is all a bit difficult.

I was going to try and have an appraisal sort of thing and go through this but I'm generally not sure how to approach it - particularly issue 2. DD seems completely unconcerned at the moment but it is bothering me a lot.

I think your point 1 is a bugger and a bit of an inconvenience for you but there is little that your nanny/you can do about child illnesses. She needn't make comments about what she would do, clearly meant to make you feel guilty about going to work and not staying at home with your dc. I am sure, as you are at work 3 days a week, you spend enough time with your dd to make your own decision if she is 'not right'

However, I would be furious about her reaction to your dd in point 2! If your dd had an accident as she had to wait too long then it is completely unacceptable for the nanny to be cross with her but also, if like she says, your dd did it on purpose then it is likely this was for attention and again, completely unacceptable for her to be cross with her. It does sound like it was the first reason she had the accident though and your nanny was probably stressed but that's no excuse.

I would be concerned about her general attitude and she doesn't sound like the type of woman I would want looking after my kids. She has been with you for 2 years though and your dd hasn't shown signs of not particularly liking her so she must have some good qualities.

You obviously need to have a discussion with her. I am not sure how close you both are but would it be worth asking if everything is ok with her as she is seeming a little stressed and is there anyway of you doing something to make things a little easier for her? I would tell her you weren't happy about the toilet incident but that you understand she might have been having a bit of a stressful morning. That way, she knows you are pissed off but that you are being understanding if something is going wrong in her personal life. Could it be that she might have recently lost a loved one/going through a strained relationship etc? I am not condoning her behaviour but if she feels she has you on side (and you wish to keep her as the nanny) then it will benefit your children.

Isnt the point of a nanny is that she will take care of sick children (to a certain point) where as a CM wouldnt?

Ah, i wasn't aware of that how to look good. I was a childminder and I thought that a nanny played a similar role, only they worked from the families homes, not their own - like a childminder.

I have no experience of this being a SAHM who has never employed a childcarer, so ignore me if you want to.... BUT you are this woman's employer, not her friend. She is paid as a nanny to care for your children - and if you feel she isn't doing this in a satisfactory manner, then you need to make that plain. She should be looking after them to YOUR satisfaction not hers.

Try an appraisal type chat - have a look on personnel management websites, or even childcare/ nannying websites, for some guidelines and go for it. If you discuss the problems in a professional manner, perhaps you can come to some compromise - if she isn't able to discuss with you in an adult manner, then perhaps it's time to look elsewhere... these are your kids, and thus your priority lies with them...

And I agree with HowTo - she should be caring for your sick children, not palming them back to you. My understanding is that Nannies get paid more due to qualifications and larger responsibilities - if she was an au pair or a CM then that would be different...

I thought it was the other way round katerlina - as a childminder I did need to undergo a qualification and be registered with OFSTED - I am not sure this is actually the case with a nanny?

Nannies work in the employer's home. They are usually responsible for 'nursery duties' which include total care for the child/children which ranges from labelling uniform to taking them to GP's appts and everything else in between.

One of the benefits of employing a nanny is that they look after your child when they are sick. I worked as a nanny for YEARS and have only ever rung my employer a handful of times to update them if the child is very ill. That does sound like a lot of time off!

I had a yearly appraisal and we sat down and discussed pay rise and any thing else that was bothering us. I actually asked for the appraisal to be 6 monthly as it was so useful.

I think maybe just start with ' Have you got time for a quick cuppa and a chat as you seem a bit stressed...' and take it from there.

Oh and they DON'T have to be qualified.

As you have been back at work for 4 months, it would seem to be a good time to sit down with nanny (without children around) and have a general catch-up on how things are going, how she is managing with an extra child etc. I presume she normally has 2 of yours, plus her dd2 (and her dd1 after school?). That's quite a lot for one person to look after and she may well be feeling stressed more often. this could then lead into your ongoing expectations of her performance.

I appreciate that if her children are ill, she is entitled to emergency leave to go and look after them, however, you are also entitled to point out that if your job is endangered because of excessive time off you will not be in a position to employ her. Does she not have any back-up at all to deal with illness?

Calling you home bacause your children are ill sounds frankly bizarre. One of the plus points of a nanny is that they are able to look after your children in your home when they are ill. Unless your child was very ill, or nanny felt it could be something very serious, I would be really unhappy about being called home 3 times in 4 months! Is nanny unable to cope generally with sick children or is it possible that she does not want to expose her own children to possible illness?

so you have had to have 6 days off work in 4 mths?

this does seem a bit over the top and as others have said one of the HUGE SELLING points of employing a nanny is that they will look after ill children unlike a cm or nursery

your nanny shouldnt have been cross with your dd it was an accident, but the only reason it happened was because her dd was on the toilet ......

stressed looking after what is really a 18mth,like 3yr twins and 6yr (at school) - if she cant cope then you need another nanny

Thanks all very much. Sorry for the delay in responding - had to take DD to a party!

Children haven't been very sick. DS had a bad cold and DD once was very tired and tearful.

I think I'll try sending her an email along the following lines:

Dear x, I thought it might be useful to have a catch up and see how things are going now that DD is settled in playgroup and you have DS as well. Could we have a word about how things are going generally, DD's behaviour and boundaries and arrangements for holiday/ sick leave and school collections when DD starts properly.

Could you suggest a time? It would probably be better to do it when the children aren't around.

Does that sound okay? I know it would probably be easier to mention it face to face but it is easy for it to be forgotten or left particularly when one or other of us is running out of the door...

DON'T send an email!!! It makes it all too formal. You know this woman, she is in your home and has looked after your kids for 2 years, if you can't just have a friendly chat with her then something is very wrong. She'll get the email, then fret about what you want to talk about and then probably have her defences up before you have even started. Ask her face to face if she has time for a chat, if it's not a good time, work out when it IS a good time. Then once you have thrashed a few things out with her you can mention the regular appraisal.

Hope it goes well :)

Im a nursery nurse and used to nanny for a local lady some time ago - her children were lovely My children of course are lovely but somehow 4 of them together were very difficult......4 children spending the hardest part of the day together (after school or mealtimes) and not being related is going to be stressfull,its very hard to nanny with your own children in tow and its not the easy answer most people assume.

Its not so much that the rules are very different most households tend to run similarly its little things that make the difference for example if the child I nannied for was ill I would collect her from school (quite literally 2 mins away) her mum was of the opinion being 'ill' meant chicken soup and bed,I am more the little and often snacks and fresh air cures a lot of things and if a child can stomach a corned beef butty then hes on his way to recovery.......I also thought 3pm signalled the end of the school day a walk home and a trip to the swings then a snack and a game or a jigsaw was a wind down,the mum wanted homework done as soon as.

It continued to work out for us cos I bent and bent sometimes putting my own children to the back of the 'line' I wasnt sad to give up and go on maternity leave though.

We are meant to be able and willing to care for children when ill ,I know it is difficult for the nanny with her own children but she is being paid as a nanny to care for your children in sickness and in health as they say.I have actually never asked a parent to come home.When the children are ill I ring mums to tell them that I am taking the children to the Dr or hospital if needed.No parent has ever come home immediately ,they trust me to look after their child until they can arrive home
On the matter of wetting themselves I don`t think anyone should be cross when young children wet themselves,it is usually an accident.I f your DD does wet herself often on purpose then you have a different problem that you have to sit down and chat with your nanny about.

Don't send an email, you need to deal with this face to face - and NOT on her time - on your time. So you will have to get your DH to have the kids so you can discuss without distraction.

I have to say, this is the primary reason I would never employ a nanny with her own children, unless they were older - teenagers. I think there is always, inevitably a conflict of interest and looking after 4 kids at such young ages is tiring.

Do you get a significant saving on you childcare because she also has her own kids?

Are the kids looked after in your own home?

I agree with the poster who said the major plus point of a nanny is that they can be there for your kids whilst they're ill. If you're not getting this from her, and from your other posts, I would seriously be considering "refreshing" my childcare situation right now.

Life is stressful enough. You don't need this from her. Job's are hard to come by - they will be other brilliant nannies out there who would be very grateful for the position. I would suggest you get thee out there and find one.

Thanks. I will have a word to her. I usually get home by 5.30 and pay her till 6. She's generally rushed off but should I ask her to stay and chat then or would it be better to ask her to work out a convenient time? I absolutely can't do it in the mornings - she arrives at 8 after dropping her DD at school and DD and I have to leave no later than 8.05...

She has looked after DD really well for a long time so I would prefer to try and put this right, but I just get the feeling her heart really isn't in it and don't think there is much more I can do about that. Nickschick's post is very helpful and I think explains a lot.

BTW, DD doesn't usually have accidents - only if napping.

As an ex nanny and now mother I wouldn't be happy with her.
The 'something isn't right' comment I find pretty nasty and unhelpful. It sounds more like because she isn't able to be in control of your DD she is using that as an excuse instead of finding a solution.

Then there's 'I would be at home' judgemental and stupid to bite the hand that feeds you!
Personally I wouldn't want someone in my home judging me.

I would make it clear on the issue of your daughter, while she may have her children with you still expect her to abide by your rules on how your DC are to be treated and where your family boundaries lie.
I certainly wouldn't be happy with someone caring for my child who gets cross over accidents.

Your nanny needs to remember that if you were at home full time with your children she wouldn't have a job.

Her making comments about she would be at home would piss me right off and are out of order as is getting cross at your dd wetting herself.

Forgot to add She should not be calling you home because your DC is ill (unless it's serious illness and not just normal childhood type) that part of her job description. Her own children it's a bit more tricky but if it's something minor like a cold and your happy for them to be with your children (being that they have already been exposed) then I don't see why she can't bring them too.

Can I just give you my personal experience with regard to this? My nanny (4 days a week, but shorter days than usual) did not have her own DC, and I used to work part time from home so was around quite a lot. She came straight from a nursery, hadn't finished her NVQ3 (and still hasn't!) and had no previous nanny experience.

After about 10 months in the position she started to get 'opinionated'. She began to comment on various elements of my parenting and children's behaviour. The comments started from small, and grew larger and larger. At first I felt quite defensive and was then quite annoyed. I sat down with her and spoke to her about it a few times, but things just kept getting worse. Annoyance gradually moved on to absolute fury. In her mind though, she was the 'expert' and I suspect she felt she knew my DC better than I did.

In the end it got too hard and I cut her down to 1 day a week, and found a CM for 2 days. But the resentfulness on both sides stayed and after a massive blow up I had to dismiss her on the spot, and paid her in lieu of the notice period.

My nanny also had a LOT of days off sick, which she ended up using her AL for in order to not be without pay. It was a pattern, and I understand that she has continued this with her new employer - who is also ending her employment contract soon. These patterns don't change without a rude, sharp, shock. For many people, only dismissal will actually make them realise just how unacceptable this is.

If these comments are not stopped NOW then I am concerned that it will just get worse.

Quite honestly, the first time she made a comment like that you should have put her back in her place - she is the NANNY, and not your HV, parent, family member, friend, whatever else she might think she is. As a nanny she is there to assist you, make suggestions and that's it, she is NOT there to JUDGE you!!!!!! If she wants to think it, fine, but she can keep it to herself. (I say this but it's easier said than done, I know. If it had been that easy I would never have ended up in the situation I did!!!)

I'm not saying change to a CM, but I myself didn't want someone back in my home after this experience, and wanted some time to re-evaluate before I think about hiring a nanny again.

Also since this dismissal in early December, my DS1, who is 3 1/2, has barely mentioned her. He doesn't seem to miss her at all, and is very happy at the CM, making the transition so smoothly I was astounded!!! DS2, 17 months, is just as happy, and adores being at the CM.

I am that a nanny would say things to judge your parenting or presume they know your dc better than the dc parents.

Your DD will adjust to a new carer if that is what you decide.

Thank you very much. I'm going to have a proper chat with her after DD's school run tomorrow so DS will be running around but only him.

She has looked after DD really well for some time so I just want to establish whether its a blip because she's finding 5 children really hard and also I suspect that my DD and her DD are not so friendly now they're at different playgroups, or whether I should start looking for someone else. Its so difficult though. I was as sure as I could be that we wouldn't be messing around like this now...

Thank you all for the support

There are 5 children? I thought there were only 4?

Sorry, she had her step daughter (11) today as well so not concentrating. She doesn't usually.

Ah, that makes sense, I just thought that if she had possibly 4 pre-schoolers that might make a difference to her performance. It is still quite a full household and she may be struggling to hold it all together but nothing excuses her comments on your parenting or telling you that you should be at home (the irony of the outcome of that is obviously lost on her!)

I would speak to her directly on each issue and write a written record of the conversation you have. Honestly it sounds to me like the upshot will be that ultimately you would be better going your separate ways. There are so many lovely nannies out there. Sometimes a change is for the good. Good luck.