Terms and conditions for self-employed nanny

[nannyquery]

I've been using a local self employed nanny on an ad hoc basis, but am now going to use her more regularly so need to sort out terms and conditions. She has said she wants:
5 weeks paid annual leave
2 weeks paid sick leave (which she is very likely to use as she likes to attend appointments with her husband who has a chronic health condition)
Half pay as a retainer for all school holidays when she won't be needed.

This seems rather a lot - she'll basically be being paid either full or half wages fro 20 weeks of the year while not working.
I was going to suggest that if she has holidays as a retainer she should take her annual leave during this time. Just to give you a full picture she gets £9 an hour for looking after 2 children and as she is self employed she can (and sometimes does) look after other children att he same time as long as she's within the limits of her nanny insurance.

Another issue is she has been talking of getting ofsted registered for months but hasn't done anything about it. This is loosing me £50 a month as I can't use vouchers so was wondering if I could say I would provide a further 2 weeks leave if she got registered?
Anyway, could anyone suggest what is reasonable? I don't want to be unfair, but this seems a bit one-sided.

any thoughts?

Why should she get sick pay to use when her hsuband is going for appointments?

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but this is not usual

I think it seems very weighted in her favour

Are you going to issue a contract and pay her tax and NI?

I give my nanny 4 weeks paid holiday, plus all bank holidays in addition

She also has to take 2 of those weeks at our request

She gets sick pay in addition to statutory (2 weeks at full pay, 2 weeks half pay)

why do you want to employ her?

if you employ a nanny you state the terms - to a certain extend i state what i want, sick pay, and if family wont agree i wont work for them

if you employ her she is legally entitled to 28days pro rota holiday a year

sounds like you would be better off employing a term only nanny - no point employing a full time one if you wonr ever use them during holidays

is she looking after other children at your home? surely she would need your consent to this, and if more than 2 familys at same time, then she is breaking the law and is behaving as a cm is - and cm work from their own home - not someone elses

if you need her to be registered then set a date and if not done by that time, or no proof nearly registered, then you need to terminate the agreement

She is self employed - I will not be employing her. I realise this is unusual but she has been doing this for years (is in 50s) and as she started before a certain date the tax office accept this.

She sounds really inflexible tbh

She doesn't look after more than two families. I don't mind her looking after other children as long as I know (I usually know the families).

Yes, Ruby - this is my thought. However, I have yet to have a conversation with her to see if she can be a bit more flexible (havn't agreed to anything yet).

She basically wants 7 weeks leave (include the sick leave which isn't really for her)

Plus a retainer

As you say, she is being paid for not working

I would use a different nanny or a CM

She is self employed - I will not be employing her. I realise this is unusual but she has been doing this for years (is in 50s) and as she started before a certain date the tax office accept this

if you are using her regually and you are deciding her days and hours then you are employing her

YOU will be the one who the tax office will be after and YOU will be the one who pays the £3k fine if found guilty of tax evasion

she may have been doing this for years, but doesnt make it legal

as a se person, she will not be entitled to sick pay or holidays - but again as a se person she can make up her contract, just as cm do, and up to you if you agree to her terms

which btw as se, what she is asking for is toally over the top

Thanks for the feedback. I have checked - apparently it remains legal for a small number of older nannies to be self employed (she is registered as such). She is not operating illegally (and I would certainly not employ her if I thought she did). I am therefore no more liable for her than if she were a childminder (which is to some extent more what she is).
I'm not sure what to do about it really - she gets on well with the kids and we have very little choice round here WRT childcare (no registered childminders). I'm very reluctuant to formally employ a nanny as have no experience of all the legal / tax / NI etc that (quite rightly) we need to sort out, and DH's job is not secure at the moment so we would quite likely need to make her redundant quite soon - it seems very unfair to recruit someone on this basis as she may miss out on other jobs, and using someone self employed feels a bit better.
Think I will clarify her status again and ring the tax office to check, and then negotiate terms and conditions.

I have checked - apparently it remains legal for a small number of older nannies to be self employed

A link please. That is the sort of gem that people would love to find.

Do check with a status officer... while they may take the approach of looking at the general picture of persons jobs in total, if they are mostly only working for a couple of people employment status well be done on a per-job basis.

They may decide that it is up to her but the contract she is proposing sounds to me as though she is wanting benefits of being employed, whilst also having the benefits of being self employed.

If she is self employed then she only gets paid for the days she works, like the rest of us self employed people.

I have checked - apparently it remains legal for a small number of older nannies to be self employed (she is registered as such). She is not operating illegally (and I would certainly not employ her if I thought she did). I am therefore no more liable for her than if she were a childminder (which is to some extent more what she is)

Checked where? As nannynick said a link verification would be fab

Wonder how old you would need to be?

She is not a cm as cm's are registered and work from their own premises not yours

Tax companys do all the paperwork and can cost £100 upwards if that is all that is bothering you from employing her :)

It was a HMRC self employed helpline - they said it was possible to be self employed as a nanny - not specifically that she was specifically self employed -sorry my previous post was misleading. They said that you needed to request confirmation in writing from HMRC of her particular tax status (which I will need to do). She's said this in no problem but I would obviously sort this before I do anything.
Don't know about the age thing - it's to do with having been registered as self employed since before a change in the rules apparently (rather than age per se IYKWIM). Will post anything else I find

I used to be a self employed nanny, the minute you start working with a family for any long term non ad hoc duration you are no longer self employed. If she works for the same families and has done for a while then you should all be employing her. When I was self employed I looked after 46 different children in one year.

NannyNick and Blondes are right I'm afraid OP and you will be the one fined for not going through the appropriate channels.

Thanks for the advice - will check again ...

It was a HMRC self employed helpline - they said it was possible to be self employed as a nanny - not specifically that she was specifically self employed

Yes nannies can be se but only if they chose the hours/days and for short term placements etc.

I am se for my temp adhoc work tho recently some of my families have employed me and paid the higher tax

But I chose whether I want to work and parents have rang up and said they need childcare the following Friday for example and I would say no as wasn't free/didn't want to and there is nothing they can do iyswim

As a se nanny I can chose that , but your nanny wouldn't be able to decide not to go in one day - hence making her employed

Blimey - this is becoming a nightmare. ~Thanks for the advice - will see if she'll be employed or maybe look at other options (not that there are many round here)
Thanks again

Tbh I don't know why any nanny would want to be se in a perm job

You miss out on paid holidays/ sick pay etc

I still think you would be better off having a term time only nanny - possibly a nowc

Welcome for the advice - that's what we are here for :)

So lets get back to what she is wanting:

5 weeks paid annual leave

Well, as an employee she would be entitled to a minimum of 5.6 weeks annual leave, which can include Bank Holidays. So I would suggest agreeing on the minimum... 5.6 weeks inclusive of bank holidays.

2 weeks paid sick leave
Nannies do not usually get any sick leave in the contract. It is Statutory Sick Pay only. This then leaves it up to the employer on each occasion to decide to pay the day, or not pay.

2 weeks paid sick leave is like adding 2 weeks leave to the holiday.

she is very likely to use as she likes to attend appointments with her husband who has a chronic health condition.

Does that fit well with what you are wanting? Is if convenient for her to take days off during term time?

Half pay as a retainer for all school holidays when she won't be needed.

As an employee having some kind of retainer for the school holidays would be nice. I've done jobs in the past where there was not a retainer and it does become an issue if temp jobs are thin on the ground.

However, would you not be wanting her to take holiday during school holiday periods?

Is she saying that the 5 weeks holiday she wants, plus the 2 weeks sick leave, would only be during term time?

If you are the employer then you can dictate when your employee takes holiday. So you could insist that holiday was only taken during school holiday periods. Then remaining weeks of the school holidays could be paid at a retainer rate.

Thanks NannyNick - that sounds sensible

Provided that you can get confirmation of her tax status, although it sounds like a lot of time off, it might still work out quite a lot cheaper per annum than a nanny you employed who would probably want 9 pds net per hour. I think it's not so easy to find a term time only nanny, but you might be lucky.

I would run the numbers on her costs vs a full time nanny on eight or nine pds net per hour and see how things shake out as part of my decision making process. Is this the only area where you feel like she's being a little demanding?

All of this is obviously contingent on getting some sort of letter from HMRC (wouldn't rely on a helpline)that she can be self employed to cover yourself. I would want them to be reiterating in the letter the job description you have agreed with her and stating outright that they confirm she is s/e under these terms.

Thanks Harriet - will do the maths. I think the key thing for her would be if I employed her I woulnd't want her doing ad hoc work for other families on the days she was employed by me. Think she would baulk at that.

surely 5.6 weeks annual leave is for an employed person working 52 weeks of the year?

If she isn't working the school holidays, her annual leave should be pro rata surely to reflect that?

is she employed (you choose her working hours) and pat her holiday / sick pay or is she self employed (like me) and chooses her hours of work but isn't entitled to sick pay or holiday pay?

agree if you dont employ her that she wont get 5.6weeks holiday a year

she wants it both ways