What is considered a natural birth?

[ComeAgain]

Does having ventouse or forceps count you out?

IMO 'natural' birth is a labour which starts and finishes spontaneously (ie no induction, no intruments) and which doesn't involve the use of syntocinon.

"surely the most important thing is to be a good mother rather than how the baby was born"

It does matter that so few mothers have natural births these days, because these things affect the health and welfare of mothers and babies at the most vulnerable and sensitive time of their relationship together.

We discuss it more now because we are more aware of how birth experiences can impact on how you feel in the first few weeks and months of your baby's life. We also value breastfeeding more than they did in the 1960's and 1970's, and are more aware of how interventions in birth can impact on this.

Personally I look back on my three births as the most exciting and memorable days of my life. I'm really glad that at least for my second and third births I had brilliant care - care that gave me the very best chance of a normal birth (considering my health problems at the time)- that made the experiences even more special for me.

To me
"natural" is no intervention, no drugs
"normal" is VB in any form
and neither one or the other deserve to be valorised particularly

If you are fortunate enough to have a high pain threshold, and lucky enough not to need intervention, that's great.

My first labour ended in em CS for malposition. People oozed sympathy,but to be honest I was very happy with my care and the outcome. I choose to believe people say stuff like "you'll get a natural birth" to be supportive rather than critical.

"and neither one or the other deserve to be valorised particularly"

I accept that a proportion of births will need the input of doctors and instruments, I think it needs to be acknowledged that both 'natural' and 'normal' birth are generally associated with better health outcomes for mothers and babies, and that there is good evidence to suggest that far more women could be having healthy normal births than are currently doing so in the UK.

It worries me that in the effort to reassure women that birth isn't a competitive sport, we forget that primarily this is a health issue, and that the care that women get in labour can have a huge impact on their likelyhood of having a straightforward and emotionally satisfying birth.

But you tittybangbang - I am sure you aren't meaning it to - all the things you have said about natural and normal births have made me feel crap again. I wanted a natural and normal birth but even with all the support I was never going to have one due to underlying complications - therefore I am afraid my focus is on being a good mother and its the best that I can do as I have been made to feel like I failed at doing the normal birth thing by so many of my friends. Just because I didn't have a normal birth doesn't make me any worse of a mother, I bf for a year, I stayed at home and looked after her solely for a year and did all the expected of me things such as classes/organic food/ etc etc and yet am still seen by some as not having done it right because I have had a emcs.
(Giving me the impression that I "made up" the whole pre-eclampsia and baby in distress possibly dying the two us..... all because I didn't want to push )

"all the things you have said about natural and normal births have made me feel crap again. I wanted a natural and normal birth but even with all the support I was never going to have one due to underlying complications"

But it's so illogical for you to feel this way! You gave your baby the healthiest birth POSSIBLE! (assuming you had optimal care....)

But then it's not unusual for your heart to be saying one thing, and for your brain to be telling you something else. Have you had a chance to talk through your sadness about your birth with a midwife? You have nothing to feel guilty about, but it's ok to feel sad and disappointed that you had to go through so much to give birth to a healthy baby, and that your birth was so different from how you maybe thought it might be. I do know that feeling. Before I had my first I assumed I would be one of those women who just squats in a corner and pushes a baby out with no help. Instead I ended up flat on my back, with my legs in stirrups, with an epidural and in need of forceps.

"yet am still seen by some as not having done it right because I have had a emcs".

Your friends are ignorant and unkind.

Of fgs titty, as if you weren't busy enough on the breastfeeding thread!

What is important is that mother's get the kind of birth that they want whether that be a 'natural' birth or a elective c-section.

C-sections only contribute to PND when they are not what the mother wants. Conversely, being forced to go through natural birth when the mother wants a c-section is a big contribution to PND.

When are you ever going to accept that your way isn't the only way of doing things?

And you having a forceps delivery doesn't qualify you to speak for everyone else's experience of instrumental delivery and what they should do next.

There are a few mumsnetters - off the top of my head Cotedazur and flowerybeanbag who have talked about amazing ELCS experiences after instrumental delivery and I don't think any of them have ever mentioned their C-S affecting their emotional health and wellbeing, quite the opposite.

I do have some very ignorant friends I will agree!

Its interesting about PND after a EMCS, I was very lucky and didn't have a problem with this but I think I was shell shocked by the fact I was actually going to have a baby at the end of the pregnancy that I was in slight denial and then all this palava happened and was so utterly grateful that my dd was healthy and bf and that we bonded and I didn't look at her like I wanted to give her back in any way shape or form that I think PND skipped past me. Or at least I would like to think so.

"What is important is that mother's get the kind of birth that they want whether that be a 'natural' birth or a elective c-section."

Most women want a safe and healthy birth for their baby. I have yet to meet a woman who has wanted an emergency c-s or a forceps birth if it could be avoided and still get the baby born safely.

"C-sections only contribute to PND when they are not what the mother wants. Conversely, being forced to go through natural birth when the mother wants a c-section is a big contribution to PND"

Possibly, to your first comment and yes to your second comment.

"When are you ever going to accept that your way isn't the only way of doing things?

What is 'my' way? Not sure what you mean.

And you having a forceps delivery doesn't qualify you to speak for everyone else's experience of instrumental delivery and what they should do next.

No. But where have I said I'm speaking for 'everyone else'? Where have I told someone what they should do?

"There are a few mumsnetters - off the top of my head Cotedazur and flowerybeanbag who have talked about amazing ELCS experiences after instrumental delivery and I don't think any of them have ever mentioned their C-S affecting their emotional health and wellbeing, quite the opposite."

Yes that's true. But evidence produced by the RCM suggests that vaginal birth is linked to better emotional and physical outcomes OVERALL. That's not to say that some mums won't be much happier with surgical or highly medicated births.

But the majority of mums want a straightforward vaginal birth, and at the moment we have a situation where smaller and smaller numbers are likely to get one because of the way our maternity services are run.

You seem to have a bit of a downer on me. Are you the same person who making personal digs at me on this board a few weeks ago, with a new user name?

Personal digs?

No.

I've got far better things to do than follow you around mumsnet thank you

I have a theory that the phrase 'natural birth' is used by a lot of people who are too squeamish to say 'vaginal birth'. So they mean one thing (came out of a particular orifice) whereas your NCT teacher might mean another (no drugs, lots of breathing).

Glad you've cleared that one up then.

Coffeeaddict I think that's definitely true - because people don't often want to say 'vaginal birth'.

Lol at 'lots of breathing'!!!

i am due to give birth any minute now, just don't know when, so i had time to think about this and other silly things.
my opinion, a natural birth is whatever people want to shoot at you to make you feel inadecquate, i want drugs, i don't want to be in excruciating pain for longer than necessary, i want a happy healthy baby at the end of it, hopefully in less than a week, but today if i can choose, and i don't care how, who said i need to give birth by myself, without drugs or intervention, maybe they mean alone naked in a cave and take your chances?

DD2 always refers to the birth of her DD as a 'text book' delivery. She means that every single thing listed in a birthing text book - from induction to CS - happened during it.

"i want a happy healthy baby"

That tends to be everyone's aim I think you'll find!

But there's a lot of discussion to be had about the way you're most likely to achieve this end.

Most women who want a 'natural birth' (ie, no instruments and no drugs) want it because they feel it's healthiest for them and their baby. I know that's what I wanted for all three of my births, even though it didn't work out that way with my first or third.

Hope your baby doesn't leave you waiting for too long!

Granny23, from hence forth I too had a text book delivery. Brilliant - no one needs to know anymore!

In my opinion a "natural" birth is a birth where the baby coes out of your vagina without instruments etc. Hadn't actually thought about the induction thing. I went into spontaneous labour a week early, and had my daughter without any instruments etc. I did have an epidural though and it was one of the best decisions of my life. So I think I had a natural birth, although perhaps not as "natural" as some?!

I think a woman giving birth any way in the world is totally amazing and women should feel they are awsome however they give birth!

I of course, mean coMes

In the competitive world of uber-birthing which half of mumsnet seem to inhabit it means no drugs, no instruments, no induction. Just you, the agonising pain, and maybe a bit of gas and air

I think I love you ELCS!

come again, I agree its fanny or ceasar.

"It does matter that so few mothers have natural births these days, because these things affect the health and welfare of mothers and babies at the most vulnerable and sensitive time of their relationship together. "

Rubbish (I nearly used a ruder word) . for every person that has trauma from a horrible medicalised birth there is someone that has trauma from the unbearable pain, or the fact they did not get their epidural, or their third degree tears

I'd be far more bloody traumatised to DIE in childbirth like they did 50 years ago

I think people use the phrase 'natural birth' to mean anything except a C-section because they are too embarrassed to say vaginal birth.

Clearly, if any intervention is used it is no longer natural.

I can't stand the whole competitiveness about birth although I find the biggest competition is about who had the most pain - very boring...

Specialist midwife I saw after DD's birth (traumatic birth) corrected me and said i'd had a vaginal not natural birth.

Induced, forceps in theatrew ith spinal block i.e nothing natural about it.

Hear hear on getting the kind of birth you want. Horses for courses. After my first two DCs, I decided I wanted above all a GENTLE birth. (DC2 was fast, furious 3 hour labour, painful, traumatic, was in shock afterwards.)
I subsequently had two planned inductions with epidurals for DCs 3 and 4. Slow, controlled, happy, no stitches or instruments or trauma to me or baby.
Shame they were both so 'unnatural'.

Don't know where some people get the idea that people might be squeamish about the term 'vaginal birth'? Why on earth?!

Vaginal birth means coming out of the vagina - simple. Where most babies come out. The rest come out through the abdomen by Caesarian section. I don't think there are any other ways (yet!)

Natural birth to most people, I would have thought, means birth without intervention or medication. Pain relief strategies such as using water, movement etc are natural. Someone earlier mentioned paracetamol... well, if you take a paracetamol while pregnant, or after the baby is born, it's not really anything to do with the birth is it? I have yet to meet a woman who has taken paracetamol during labour as pain relief - would be fairly pointless.