The general feeling here seems to be anti-invervention and medical help. Why, when it has saved so many lives?

[greenwithyellowspots]

I am really interested in this question. I think that Mumsnet is really geat, I love it, but one thing I've noticed particularly on the childbirth thread is that on the whole people are anti-intervention or even that doctors etc are the enemy! With induction for example, but also generally, the consensus seems to be about letting women get on with it because 'their bodies know best.'

But in the past, and still today in many countries, it seems clear that women's bodies DON'T always know best - mortality in childbirth used to be/still is horribly high! It often seems as though the medical profession can't win when it comes to childbirth - if they intervene they are accused of being over zealous, but if they get it wrong, they are also to blame.

I'm sitting here pondering the fact that I'm likely to be induced soon-ish and am reasonably willingly putting myself in the hands of the medical profession. Is there not a danger or harking back to a golden age of childbirth that didn't exist? I hope this isn't a really inappropriate question but I'm generally interested in what people have to say about this, as I kind of feel like I'm missing the point somewhere!

Ignore the first post SORRY didnt put the quotation marks in. Dont wanna be done for stealing 'babycentre's' work now.

Chellesgirl - VBAC stands for Vaginal Birth after Caesarean Section. Not sure how anyone could opt for VBAC without a previous birth being a CS?!

I/We had no way of knowing if there were any indications that uterine rupture was occurring as we were not permitted to touch, interact with or monitor the woman in any way and had no history to refer to. I used this case as an illustration of how some people have a very strong view of what they want and are not willing to discuss or consider any other view. If this family had come for antenatal care we would have been able to avoid the confrontation in labour as we did in the second case but the rupture might have occurred anyway. I just wonder if the outcome might have been different.

As for the PPH, there was an atonic uterus. There was no residual placental tissue and there had been no "fiddling" either. Just a uterus that didn't contract very well.

Is that freebirthing in hospital?

LOL Tinkerbelle! We did wonder why they had come at all.

Sorry trafficwarden. Could you tell us any stories that went well though? like ones thatdidnt have CS before, or just purely VB?

I have to say from my own point of veiw that my pregancy went fine until every body at the hospital and doctors started to tell me what to do.
I dont think now that it is there fault but I do wish it hadnt happened, though I got my V birth it was done on a drip on my back and only cus I am so bloody minded.
I dont think the problem is that people are anti-invervention, it is more that the poeple who are trying to invertin dont listen frist.
The reason that they were trying to push me into a early cs was that I had high BP and my son felt a little small, but my BP was high before I feel pregant and if you look at the family on both sides they look like hobbits and small strough babies run in the family, but if I had been able to see the same mid wife though out or the people at the hospital had read my notes they would have seen that.
I think that the problem is that mid-wifes are to stretched be with you all the way and the doctors dont have the time to listen.

By the time you get near to labour all you want is SOME ONE YOU KNOW to be there to tell you want is best and ASK if that is what you want to do, rather then being told you dont know any thing cus you didnt take the course and they know what is best for you cus they have a degree. When the truth is the that have no idea about you, cus they dont get time, to only what the book says(the books do save lives but...)
At least if we could have a mid-wife who you have seen before they would exsperence of you and what the books say then alot more poeple would be not so anti-invervention and would have alot best birth exsperences.

and that is why daisychainXX im opting for a independent midwife who can get to know me. alot of ppl are not as fortunate to be able to afford non NHS treatment but I am not 'rich' at all. Seriously!But I am saving for the next time. a whole £3600

Ps my note goes back to orginal question.
Sorry to confuse.

Goodness, stories that went well? Hundreds of them but it might wander off the thread.
One to keep you going though.................

I was working in a lovely Midwife Unit and the student with me had seen a few births with other Midwives but not with me. This time the wonderful Mum to be (for the fourth time) agreed that the student could catch her baby. Mum said "I need the loo". I asked if she meant a pee or a poo(accepted terms in that area!) and she laughed saying just a pee, not ready yet! Student and I sitting in room heard a great splash from the en-suite bathroom and then a great groaning sound. Student a bit panicky says she would call for help, I said just knock and grab a towel and gloves as you come in. Found Mum gripping the hand rail, liquor flowing and head crowning. I just suggested she shuffle forward a fraction so baby didn't go down the pan and student caught baby in the towel. Straight up to Mum for skin to skin, placenta came shortly after. I admit to making the student scoop it out of the toilet, sorry it was mean. Then Mum and baby hopped in the bath for a quick dip while I made the tea and toast.
Student was very concerned as to how she should write up the notes as she felt she hadn't really done anything until Mum sorted it out by telling her she wasn't meant to do anything, that was Mum's job.
That student reminded me of the birth every time I saw her afterwards, I hope she still remembers whose job is whose when everything is normal!

No one can tell you what to do unless you let them. Always, always, always use your T-BRAINS, take control of your birth!

I've already said that in my situation we got to Time and no further because there wasn't any to Talk or discuss the options, they had to have four doctors explaining different things and getting consent all at the same time whilst another stopped my drip, the midwives dressed me and themselves and Mum took my jewellery and cleaned my nails.

Unless you are in a situation like that there is no excuse for not Talking!

Maybe the £130 for an antenatal class would be better spent?

Trafficwarden - midwife unit can be very different to hospital maternity unit. i want to hear of a non intervention birth that you accompanied in a hospital? I.e. Mother had NO intervention at all?

Not due to the fact SHE didnt want intervention but due to the FACT you or other staff didnt intervene because you thought it was right not to?

Not sure if its appropriate but feel the urge to share my birth story - I think some bits are relevant to this thread... sorry if its long but I've never got this off my chest before and feel the urge to do so now...

DD, first baby, having done LOTS of research I wanted a home birth. Community midwife not keen (to put it mildly!) but only reason was that it was my first and it would take too long to get to hospital if I needed to transfer (in reality its less than 5 minutes by car so even less by ambulance) but I was scared by her doom-mongering so i agreed to go to the MLU co-located with consultant led unit.

3 days after due date automatically booked to see consultant at antenatal clinic. She was lovely, said that there was no need for me to be induced however long I went over dates and that I could just come in every day to be monitored. I was happy.

10 days over, another appointment at antenatal clinic. Didn't see lovely consultant, saw her registrar. I gave her my urine sample and she called a midwife in to stick the dipstick in - honestly it seemed at the time (and with hindsight) like she thought it was beneath her to test the urine. Whilst midwife was doing this, registrar told me that I was to be booked in for induction in 3 days. I explained that that hadn't been what the consultant had told me the previous week, that I wanted monitoring instead but registrar told me that if I insisted on not being induced, she would write on my notes that this was against medical advice and that I was deliberately putting my baby's life at risk. At this point, the midwife looked up from the sink and said, "there's no protein the the urine you know..." (with hindsight I am sure she was trying to "side" with me without seeming to in front of the doctor). By this point I was in tears, registrar wouldn't discuss anything with me further, opened the door to signal end of conversation and told me to talk to the midwife team booking inductions.

I went to see midwife team, they were BRILLIANT, they could see how upset I was, calmed me down and recommended having sex to get things going - they actually said that given a choice between induction and sex "i know which prick I'd prefer"... made my DH blush!

Anyway, after taking midwives advice early labour started at 3am the next morning. Stupidly I didn't try and rest, I got up and bounced about and kept moving etc etc and basically knackered myself out. 11pm I headed to hospital. No room in the MLU but put in a room in CLU. Did not see a midwife at all until an hour later. Midwife was fantastic. Not sure of the timings from this point on...

I wasn't coping too well so asked for pethidine, midwife made sure I knew what I was asking for and peth administered. Felt fantastic, was able to rest between contractions, all wonderful and progressing (albeit slowly). Some hours later, lovely midwife told me she was off to do shift change so the next midwife I saw would be someone different but not to worry, I was doing fine etc etc. I was happy. Unfortunately shift change took a bit longer than expected and Dh had to go and put a ticket in the car so i was left alone. Next person in the room didn't introduce herself - I assumed it was the new midwife - she just said (without examining me or speaking to me, just looking at notes) "right, you need a syntocin drip, I'll get that set up". Having heard all about augmentation at my NCT classes, I paniced and asked for an epidural.

Drip set up. Another person comes in, introduces herself as new midwife and asks what the hell the drip is and turns it off. Turns out "mystery woman" was the doctor NOT the new midwife. Midwife goes nuts (even uses a few swear words I hadn't heard!) and although she turns down the drip, she says she can't remove it once its been started. The drip stops me moving around so effectively and I also had a mobile epidural because I was so scared of the augmentation.

DD born 3 hours later by ventouse, fine.

Did i really need the augmentation drip and epidural? I will never know if I would have needed them ultimately but the midwives reaction seems to suggest that at the time I had it, she believed I didn't need it. Given that the mystery doctor didn't examine me or listen to DD before pronouncing that I "needed" a drip, I can only assume that she was going my the clock and hospital protocol NOT going by mine and my baby's needs. I can only call that unnecessary intervention.

Next time, I've already decided, I will have a doula so that there is no time when I'm left on my own with no advocate.

Chellesgirl, I get the impression you think all hospital births have interventions. I can assure you that is most definitely not my experience.
By the way, that Midwife Unit was part of a large Maternity hospital and run by the same midwives who ran the main delivery unit down the corridor and governed by the same policies.

I have "caught", for want of a better word, or been present with hundreds of women in hospital who had no interventions. I have a particular woman in mind here but there is nothing unusual about her because she didn't need me to do anything to her, I was just with her, as I have been with so many others. She came in contracting every 10 mins, sore but coping well by breathing through. Her membranes were intact and as it was her first she said she had been rushed in by her husband who was terrified she would give birth in the new car. She wanted to know how dilated she was, I examined her after discussing that she was probably still in early labour but that was what she wanted. She was 3cm with bulging forewaters and we decided after discussion that she would go for something to eat and return when she felt she needed more support. She didn't have a CTG, we just listened to baby with a doppler.
She returned about 5 hours later and after a walk round the corridors with her it became obvious she was likely to give birth soon, huffing and puffing, making grunting noises and telling me she needed to empty her bowels. The long and the short of it is that she gave birth leaning over the bed about 1.5 hours later. The membranes remained intact until the head was crowning when they ruptured spontaneously, she helped to catch the baby herself and then sat on the floor mats to feed baby and push out her placenta. She didn't have syntometrine because although it was hospital policy we had discussed it earlier and she said she trusted me to give it if I felt she needed it. She had a small tear which I didn't suture after explaining healing and hygiene. My clinical assessments included baseline BP, pulse and temp to rule out any problems, discreet but regular listening of the fetal heart. This meant I had done everything I should have done by the letter of the law, which unfortunately has to be taken into account. I have a duty of care to these womwn and that is part of it.

So, I expect in that situation some people would have done a CTG, examined her as soon as she returned to hospital, possibly ruptured her membranes, had her climb aboard the bed and sutured her perineum.I would have been able to support my "non-actions" by quoting and referencing evidence based care and the fact the woman and her partner were fully informed of the pros and cons of all these procedures but I didn't have to because nobody questioned my ability to help this woman birth.

This was not an isolated incident and certainly not unique to me. My colleagues usually prefer "no attachments" as we call it. Does that answer your question?

When I asked my question I was amazed at the strong feelings women had to my decision to have an elective c-section. I felt very much that the majority were against intervention and in favour of home births etc.. but what is right for one isn't for another and we all have the ability and right to make our own decisions as long as we are happy with them and have researched it.
It did amaze me though that it provoked such strong feelings as my decision doesn't effect their way of life and nor should it.

Chelles, a lot of hospitals have a MLU inside of them, same staff, same corridor etc.

ok ppls. at the end of the day we just want a healthy baby. I am glad to hear that ppl have had no intervention and birthed well, but for others it went 'wrong'. I just have no trust in the NHS anymore and maybe thats just me(my dd nearly died becuase of them), but for the safety of my baby i'm birthing at home, with independent mw, or in a birthing centre. Not a hospital. But if like so many others, and my last birth, my baby or I need lifesaving intervention then I will go to hospital. But just not the ones in my area as they are CRAP! And I will have my IMW there with me.

Chellesgirl, I am sorry your experience of the NHS was so bad but please don't criticise ALL NHS Midwives/Doctors and assume they are all the same. I hope you have a wonderful birth experience with your Independent Midwife.

Problem is trafficwarden that none of us know whether we'd be getting you (or someone like you) when we turn up at hospital. Thats why I also got an independent midwife for my second and third births - wasn't willing to risk getting Nurse Ratchett again!

Luckily I'm going private and feel so blessed about that. With the NHS I would now be on my 6th midwife at my doc surgery! It doesn't give the feeling of confidence.

I must just say that I had a wonderful labour and birth with the NHS. It can be bad, but you can't guarantee a good outcome or experience no matter how much money you spend. I had a lovely midwife with me for my daughter's birth, no interventions that I hadn't specifically asked for, no problems, skin to skin immediately after birth, everything that I asked for immediately and without question. Nice room to stay in, with one bathroom between two mothers, clean, comfortable, pleasant surroundings. It was great. I feel very blessed indeed to have been cared for so well and without having to spend any money on it at all.

Ema, were you the poster who was having a CS for your first birth with no medical reason for it? Apologies if I have you mixed up with someone else.

no you are right I am having a cs from choice. I hope that everybody has the birth they want and a good experience I really feel for those who do not.

Despite an early induction for high blood pressure, drip, arm, epidural with dural tap the works i had nothing but good words and memories for the majority of my extensive NHS care with dd1. Unfortunately I still have horrid flashbacks to waking up screaming to a midwife trying to re catheterise me the night after birth with no consent and no pain relief. One bad egg / bad decision (she thought I was knocked out and epidural would still be working I wasn't and it wasn't) can ruin a whole fortnight of amazing treatment!

I think people need to bear in mind that you can get gruff / bad communicator / disillusioned staff in the private sector too!

Of course you can and I was not saying that ALL NHS midwives are the same. Its just my opinion (like were allowed to express on here) that I do not like the NHS. its not just the maternity unit I dont like about it.

trafficwarden"Chellesgirl, I am sorry your experience of the NHS was so bad but please don't criticise ALL NHS Midwives/Doctors and assume they are all the same. I hope you have a wonderful birth experience with your Independent Midwife."
You remind me of the investigator who investigated all my complaints about the NHS and a certain 2 hospitals. You know what she said at the end of the 'Sorry letter' " Im sorry that your stay/birth at *** hospital was the worst time of your life" Bitch!

Would you say that to someone who had complained about:

• A midwife leaving your baby on the bed, to die while she walked out of the room,
• being stabbed with a needle that I said I didnt want (but it was hospital protocol)
• the state of the blood stained shower,
• the rudeness of cleaners/ other staff
• the rudeness of some nurses on the ward
• the blood clot filled toilets that hadnt been cleaned all day
• the fact I was not able to hold my baby for 2hrs because she was ' grunting' but yet they left her in the cot and again walked out of the room,
• the fact that I was meant to be in my own room
• that my baby was fed formula by the neonatal nurses when she was being BF
• No BF help at all
• Emergency buzzer not working and at a time when my dd turned blue.
• the fact of my partner being thrown out after being on the ward with me for 5 min (when there was no other woman on the ward and we'd Just had our baby)
• a pead putting bloody gloves into my babys mouth after heel pricking her
• my baby being left in NICU as there were No staff to bring her back up to me and I wasnt allowed to go get her,
• AND!!!! the fact an ill lady with suspected meningitis (not pregnant, not just had a baby) suspected infection, was put on a ward with babies and mums because there was no room in ICU for her and there were only 1 midwife on the ward to deal with her and everyone else.

Chellesgirl, I realise from what you have posted that your experience was horrible and you are absoulutely right to complain - I would too. I don't know why you have have compared me to the "bitch" investigator you encountered when all I wrote was that I was sorry your experience was so bad. I genuinely am sorry and apologise if you read sarcasm where none was intended.

You wrote in a previous post:
"I do believe that most Midwives and Paediatricians/Consultants believe intervention is necessary".
All I was doing was expressing my opinion that this is not the case.