Natural - v - Caesarean - a new thread

[JoolsToo]

sorry to be bossy but can we carry on here?

I'm for natural when possible

Doesn't need to be though.,.... OK off to work as I am now late

I was referring to posts saying that women shouldn't be allowed the choice of having a section. There are a few of them on this thread.

I had ds naturally (if you call induction, epidural, forceps natural...- where am I on your moral heirarchy Aloha ). Personally I think it should be up to each individual - although my Hospital don't do elective C' sections - I came very close to a C' section (Even before I was induced the Consultant asked how I felt about a C'section - I said 'do whatever is necessary').
My bigger issue is I felt I wasn't fully informed about why things were done, what my choices might be and all that. (unlike when I had an amnio - my consultant laid EVERYTHING on the line.....)

Don't know if i'll be able to write this by the time ds wakes up from nap but here goes:

c-section/natural birth is one of those subjects that can't help but be an emotive one. and those on both sides generally have personal reasons for being there (great natural birth/great c-section or terrible natural birth experience/terrible c-section experience).

like other difficult areas of parenthood (and this isn't the first decision that can feel like a no-win one sometimes is it?) we can all be guilty of defensiveness which takes the form of attack. the one thing i really believe about this area, that doesn't seem to get a mention (please forgive me if it has, i haven't had a chance to trawl thro this whole thread) is that somehow now we feel we have the right to have successful births: whether success is defined by relatively pain-free, or totally natural, but in all cases by delivery of a healthy baby. the thing is whilst it is our right to question decisions made during the process, and to expect that the medical staff working for us do their best, no one can guarantee us the successful birth described above. and sometimes i think that the strong emotion happens when we feel betrayed by what happens in reality. births can go wrong. and do. far less now than ever, but whether we get the natural birth or c-section that we want or need, is still no guarantee.

what i'm trying to say is that the people working with us in hospitals, and the midwives and doulas attending us in homebirths should be trained and supported to do their very best by us. the government should educate women so as to enable them to research and realise their choices in pregnancy and birth (not just middle class guardian readers if you'll forgive the stereotype, but all women). and we should do that research and be assertive enough to work with the powers that be to get the best possible result for us.

but even if all this happens, and it totally doesn't at the moment, birth is not a controllable process and i don't think we should ever expect it to be such, whichever side of the c-section/natural birth fence we fall on.

hope this post hasn't been too pointless.

Pupuce: Doesn't need to be though

Are you referring to my agonising 27 hour labour? I'd be very grateful to know exactly what I did wrong then. Was it the 200 quid I spent on hypnotherapy for labour course? Or the breathing classes? The NCT labour preparation course? The hour's walking every day to keep me fit and keep my stamina up? The hours on my knees watching telly via mirror getting my baby into a 'good birth position'? The 10 books I read about having a great, active, holistic birth? Having my wonderful DH supporting me throughout? The 17 hours 'peacefully' labouring at home? Jesus, I couldn't have been better prepared - but at the end of the day, totally inadequately prepared for hour after hour of the most incredible agony I've ever felt.

Oh morningpaper

Don't worry, I've had a fantastic baby experience ever since.

Gwenick - Just a quick message to lol at your comments ref my name. I am following the other comments with interest too.
I had a fab waterbirth with dd but do not feel superior to anyone who had a cs. I do however feel very fortunate by comparison. Some may see this as patronising but they would be wrong. Childbirth is at the end of the day a 'natural' process. Thank God it is safer now than it was and sections certainly have a place in that. I do think the statistics speak for themselves though.

MP, I found 7 hours of agony was enough to traumatise me.
Mind you, throughout I didn't get any care at all - let alone the continous monitoring that women with previous sections are supposed to come. I was just left totally alone on a dark ward - they'd even sent my dh home. It was HORRIBLE. And I was only 2-3 cm dilated at the end of it

aloha: So grim for you.

sophable and morningpaper in her most recent post touch on a very important point - the randomness of the birth experience - how you can't predict in advance whether you will have the active birth/epidural that you envisage. granted better availability of anaesthetists and better support in labour would be a great help - but there are still many circumstances outside NHS control, such as difficult positioning/exhausting pre-labour that can scupper anybody's plans and result in a C-Section/other intervention. If someone has managed VB without pain relief/interventions then chances are they have had a huge dollop of luck (or, in unfortunate - and i hope rare cases, have been refused pain relief unjustifiably)

In terms of C-Section or VB - as I understand it, if you have a fab VB you are likely to have a slightly quicker recovery than if you have a fab CS. Problem is tho that it is impossible to predict what you will have.

I also hate the term "too posh to push". If a woman has a debilitating fear of labour (which may be due to a previous traumatic birth experience or sexual abuse) or may be unrelated, I don't see why they should be denied an elective section (of course if they are aware of any extra risks to C-section, and talk through their fears of labour in case they are unfounded) etc etc

If someone has managed VB without pain relief/interventions then chances are they have had a huge dollop of luck

Sorry but I find that statement very misleading - there are MANY women who have good painrelief/intervention labours - 100's (probably actually 1000's) of which occur at home!

I think we all agree that we HATE "too posh to push"!!!!!!

MummyToSteven: I totally agree with you. I read about a study recently which found that preparation classes for labour made no difference to the outcome/intervention rate. But 'luck' is never emphasised in preparation - it's always about 'choice'.

I completely agree with Aloha. I had booked into the birth centre, read a million books, attended all the classes etc etc - if I had to sit an exam I would have done very well indeed!! Unfortunately, I had an incredibly distressing and upsetting time, hours and hours of back to back and basically, despite support could simply not cope with what was happening. When they suggested we consider a c-section (baby distressed, failure to progress i.e. contractions had completely stopped), I wept with relief.

I think it is important to appreciate that we DON'T ALL HAVE THE SAME EXPERIENCE. It's not that some "cope better". Some of us have a really awful time. Hey, no one has a great time, but no-one can say "with the right support it would have been all different". It just doesn't work like that.

When I went into the theatre for my c-section, someone suggested I try for natural delivery and I burst into tears (again!) so spectacularly they had to run at me with paper towels to mop up the torrent! I think that persuaded them that perhaps it wasn't a good idea for me

Message withdrawn

hear hear PG

My friend quite enjoyed her recent birth....but then she didn't have much pain, and it was all over (with no stitches) in far less time than it took me to get to 2-3cm... we are, as others have pointed out, all different.
I think I do perhaps recover from sections faster and better than other people, hence my good experience.

Have only skimread the last few posts I'm afraid. Definitely think is entirely woman's choice, BUT I think every effort should be made that they are utterly informed about all the possible consequences, and not given information slanted to persuade them one way or the other. For example, I'd be interested to hear Gwenick's statistic adjusted to take out the mortalities that would have happened without the CS anyway. Or, given that in some cases (including aloha and marina) a VB would in all probability have killed them, perhaps that should be factored into the VB statistics for safety. For me, I would always opt for a VB - dd's birth was a truly amazing experience, and wasn't at all torturous - yes it hurt like anything, but it was exhilarating. But if there were a medical reason for a CS AND I felt informed about the true situation, then I wouldn't fight the medics.

(Should add, I do know every birth is different, was very lucky with dd!!)

I recovered quickly from mine too (was driving after 12 days - no-one had told me about the 6 weeks thing!!!). Wound healed very quickly, no problems. So, like Aloha, would be inclined to opt for this again. Am not inclined to labour again, given that it was seriously the single most traumatic event of my life (sorry if that sounds dramatic, but that is certainly how I felt).

Perhaps Mears or Pupuce or somebody else could answer a question for me?

Was there ever a time when NHS midwives looked on it as their job to support women in labour, in the same way that a doula does? In other words, to be with her right the way through, talk to her, encourage her, rub her back, suggest she tries different positions etc? Because ime midwives do tend to leave women to get on with it until they are 10cm dilated and ready to push - and I just didn't know that first time around. If I had known it I would have got a doula for my first delivery.

sophable - as usual a very eloquent and good post.

mp - on the following post - I've always said this about births - you can get all the advice you want, do all the preparation you want - but you never know what its going to be like until you're there. I listened to loads of birth stories before I had my first (women do like to talk about it - me included!) but none of it prepared me for the actual experience.

the only problem I have with elective c-section is when they are chosen for cosmetic reasons and to keep your bits in good order - if what we read is true, I hasten to add. Feel free to tell me I'm talking tripe - I'm here to get all views.

This BBC article claims there is no link between cs and pnd. It also says more cs's are being performed because babies are getting bigger (though a mw friend delivered four 10lb+ babies on the trot, all straightforward vb's!) and women are fatter.