Natural - v - Caesarean - a new thread

[JoolsToo]

sorry to be bossy but can we carry on here?

I'm for natural when possible

Morningpaper.... can I say that (and I know I am going on and on about support in labour) you can have a very good birth experience, leaving you exhilarated (and have no drug as well).... most (if not all of my mums) feel an amazing sense of achievement, the pain was totally bearable (only 1 ever requested an epidural with me!)....

Enid - I think most "standard" 1st time births don't go very well to be honest, I think 2nd, 3rd,... go much much better!

What really gets on my berves is when MEN have opinions on this and write "too posh to push"-type articles in the papers.

nerves....

pupuce: I'm very pleased for them, but frankly I think their desire for a good birth experience is mis-placed.

They are also a self-selected sample.

Morning paper... epidural rates:
UK : 33%
France : 63%

And again 12st time mums are the ones who constitute the bigger proportion as their labours are longer... 2nd time mums don't often have the time to have an epidural !

MP - I know more women who've had positive VB's (both drugged up to their eyeballs right down to the homebirths with nothing) than those that have had negative ones. The thing is we rare ly HEAR about the positive ones - whereas the negative ones are usually the ones that people talk about.

Why do you say this : I think their desire for a good birth experience is mis-placed.

WHy is it misplaced? Ask your grandma to tyell you about her births it is the single most important memory most women have... it isn't too much to ask to get that !

Did you have good births morningpaper ?
I did.... I felt ecstatic !

But there are people on this thread saying that I shouldn't have been 'allowed' my section and should have been forced to continue a process that I found deeply distressing - not to mention absolute agony. I felt - and this is how I genuinely felt at the time - like a torture victim in some Bolivian cellar - I was in agony, I was very upset and nobody gave a shit about me. I couldn't even think about it for a week without crying. Why do some people on this thread think that was great but my section, which went wonderfully well - was unacceptable?
And like it or not, there is a moral hierarchy of birth in this society. Compare the heroine status of Davina McCall for having a homebirth, while Victoria Beckham, whose children appear no less healthy, is villified and sneered at for having sections. The coverage of the birth of her son has made me very angry and sad - and I'm no fan of the Beckhams.
As for the death rates, remember, the vast, vast majority of sections are done for medical reasons. Only 7% are maternal choice. So many women having sections are already suffering from dangerous complications such as pre-eclampsia, fits, placental abruption, placenta praevia, all of which can kill. It's hardly surprising that sections do have a highter maternal mortality! But my own consultant told me that the modern elective caesarian is 'a very safe operation. The statistics may show double the risk but double nothing is still nothing" - and no, she wasn't 'scalpel happy' and did put the case for vaginal birth to me. I have done lots of my own research into this. I think that yes there are advantages to vaginal birth if it goes well, but there are also disadvantages - and having experienced the worst night of my entire life in labour - I would say that was one of them. But my central point is, yes, it's a wonderful idea to ensure that women who don't want sections don't have to have them due to inadequate care etc, but why do people passionately want to prevent the relatively small percentage of women who do want one from having the birth of their choice?

Gwenick - you are so right it is the more horrid stories people like to tell as they are the "most" interesting ones... and so often women keep telling them in a form of "counselling" they need to get them out of their system....

but if you think its one of the most important things you can do, indeed one of the few things that isnt controlled by our consumerist culture (until you get to unnecessary c-sections), then how can it be misplaced to want it to be a wonderful experience? And I'm not talking about incense and whale music here, I'm talking about the joy of your body working to birth a baby and the triumph you feel when you actually do it

Gwenick: despite my shit labour experience, the midwives were all bloody marvellous. And the male Consultant who attended (mine and dd's heart rates had slowed down) said "No she doesn't need forceps (which the midwife thought was needed) she just needs a quick cut..." (Out comes the flick-knife and dd dribbled out.)

I have no qualms about my care. I still think that giving birth is fecking terrible.

I totally agree with you Aloha

It can be joy and it can be pure trauma. Personaly I think the joy is when you held your baby for the first time. Who cares if you sneazed him out or spent hours listening to a whale ?

BTW I was absolutely euphoric after both my births - grinning like an idiot in photos! But I was happier the first week after my first as I wasn't still traumatised by my labour experience. My daughter may have benefitted from the hormones etc involved in labour - it's hard to tell on my small sample of two - but I didn't!

Pupuce: My grandmother had four dead babies and six live ones.

I think I know which ones were her 'good birth experiences.'

I thought that giving birth was awful to - but it's part of life if you want a baby.........as I've already mentioned I've had one of each (oh but forgot to mention the consultant who didn't seem to understand the words "Vaginismus" plastered across my notes ) and despite my awful experience would opt for VB again (if DH ever gives me the chance)

My last 2 births were fabulous - my 2nd baby was an induced (with prostin gel) waterbirth, labour was 1 hour 15 minutes. My 3rd was a spontaneous 1 hour 5 minutes birth. I had no pain relief with either of them, and therefore felt none of the grogginess, sickness that I had with No 1.

No 1 was a 22 hour, spontaneous, forceps delivery with pethidine and gas and air.

aloha I don't think anyone has said you shouldn't be allowed a section or forced to do something you don't want. I haven't seen any comments like that.

So why was it shit? what makes you say that ? I am trying to understand....

Am off to work now but will read the rest tonight... unless I am a at VBAC (she says excitedly!!!)

Just to second pupuce - I was one of those 3% - twice, had absolutley no pain relief, in fact second time had no midwife either (not planned!) just dh, and both times I felt exhilarated, and it was nothing like 'torture'. In fact second time I felt quite empowered by it all, which sounds strange I know.
My Mum also had 2 children (one breech) without pain relief.

Enid: I don't think that giving birth is one of the most important things you can do. I think how you cope with every day for the next 20 years is far, far more important.

Joy... triumph... I just want a healthy baby.

BTW I am totally sincere when I say that I think it is a huge shame when women who don't want sections end up with them because they don't get proper care. And I think given the understaffing etc in the NHS that is a LOT of women.

It was shit because I spent 27 hours in screaming hellish agony.

it all moved fast while I was typing that!
Meant to say though that while it works for me due to very fast labours, I totally support any ones choice, and think that everyone should have access to any type of birth they choose.