Homeopathy in Childbirth - objections from hospital midwife

[Rolf]

I have booked a doula for my (hopefully) imminent labour. We have been to see a homeopath together and plan for her to throw remedies in my mouth whilst I'm in labour.

I was told yesterday by a very reliable source (my hairdresser!!) that a friend of his recently delivered at the same hospital and when her doula started giving her homeopathic remedies, the midwife got very worked up and asked her to stop. I'm not sure whether or not she did, but the hospital is now undertaking an internal inquiry (whether generally or into this particular case, I'm not sure). The patient apparently was perfectly happy with her care from both the hospital and the doula so I think it's for the purposes of clarification rather than a big witch-hunt.

I'm slightly concerned that because of this there will be generally twitchy atmosphere about someone not employed by the trust giving a patient any sort of medication. I've added to my birth plan "I would like to use homeopathic remedies in labour and am happy for my doula to administer them". Do you think that's adequate or should I go further? Should I write out a list of the remedies I'm taking in with me, the name of the homeopath who dispensed them and a more sweeping waiver? Or is that the litigator in me speaking?

I have quick labours so won't be able to waste time debating with them. My doula is well-known at the hospital and I think will be very good at this sort of advocacy. And I have a good relationship with the hospital although as it's a big teaching hospital there's every chance that in labour I won't be looked after by anyone I know.

Any thoughts would be v welcome.

But ST that sounds too much like proper science and, you know, some people just put their trust in science too much. Sheesh! When you could just go with what the hairdresser told you he heard from the last person on his chair.

LOL, when I go to the hairdresser, she is completely stumped for conversation with me. I think New Scientist puts her off.

I think more research needed
is a better summary of the position
although according to cochrane conventional medicine makes a balls up in trials as well
and a reply to Ben Goldacre

Seems the jury's still out to me.

What jury?

Not the scientific one!

A midwife cannot stop you using stuff like that in labour. She may well feel she wants to advise you that she has no knowledge of their safety (or lack of safety) or usefulness so can't guide you on their use. She may well document that she's told you this.

I've looked after women who have bought their own remedies along and as long as they understand that I can't have anything to do with administering it or advising them on it then they can do what they want. Some midwives of course have done extra training and can administer homeopothy.

lol bad science is a riveting read on homoeopathy

Well I'm a scientist, and there are plenty of GP's etc who use homeopathy (in fact my first ever prescribed remedy came from a GP).

Doesn't mean they are prescribing based on science. Some are slaves to emotion, just like the general public.

slave's to emotion,mmmm sounds Dirrty Yes please

Well having watched one child's life destroyed by conventional medicine (and I'm not talking vaccinations before you all get up in arms) I'm happy to go with being a slave to emotion.

I'm really taken aback by various people's -ranting- entrenched views on this thread.

Given that the op wanted advice on how to best have her wishes respected in labour - not whether homeopathy was appropriate for that situation - its really quite rude to be quite so dismissive.

I agree mazzystar. But it's always the way. Somewhere between the intellectual posturing there's something useful I think.

So don't throw your scientific credentials around if you don't believe in the scientific method.

there are 5 NHS homoeopathic hospitals

H O S P I T A L S
Bristol Homoeopathic Hospital
Cotham Hill, Cotham, Bristol BS6 6JU
0117 973 1231

Glasgow Homoeopathic Hospital
1053 Great Western Road, Glasgow G12 0XQ
0141 211 1616

Tunbridge Wells Homoeopathic Hospital
Church Road, Tunbridge Wells, Kent TN1 1JU
01892 632801

Department of Homoeopathic Medicine
The Old Swan Health Centre, St Oswald's Street, Old Swan
Liverpool L13 2BY
0151 285 3707

Royal London Homoeopathic Hospital
60 Great Ormond Street
London WC1N 3HR
020 7391 8891

Which is a big great shame IMO. Prince Charles believes in this stuff too. It doesn't add to its credibility either.

And Mazzystar - Rolf did say all thoughts on this welcome. Noone has been nasty. I just questioned whether she should get all panicky about some chit-chat from the hairdresser. So better than having advice from internet strangers she should establish facts - if there were any - first.

i am neutral about it. scientifically yes it has no evidence base but i think used in conjunction with other treatments it can be effective for some pts.

maybe the fact that the average consultation time in homoeopathy considerably exceeds that given by GP or hospital doctor. the fact that an adequate time is allocated in itself is beneficial

It's all a sad (and worrying) indictment at the status of science in our society.

Ah well, there's nowt daft as folks

Any benefit is down to a placebo effect or feel-good factor.

I was at a First Aid course yesterday, and the trainer mentioned the feel-good factor several times. For example, giving someone a bandage instead of a plaster can be instrumental when it contributes to feel-good. Or the kid that gets to be a pirate after treatment for a very minor headwound.

This is different from placebo - perhaps it is associated with the amount of attention and the validation of feelings.

Some of you might be surprised to hear that there is a $1 million reward out there to whoever provides evidence that it works.

BBC program 'Horizon' conducted its own scientific experiment to try and get this money. They failed, just like every other experiment.Here is the link.

It's impossible to prove anything in favour of homeopathy.

A substance that has similar symptoms to the illness that it is supposed to treat so that the body's own immune system can kick in sooner (aside: childbirth is not an illness)...

Dilute it 100x, 10000x, 1000000x etc, until you no longer can guarantee a single molecule of the active ingredient.

Honestly, why does anyone think this might work?

"It's all a sad (and worrying) indictment at the status of science in our society."

I agree. Funny to read that those who believe in homeopathy are quite happy to down any amount of homeopathic pills during labour or whatever, as long as they believe those pills are effective and have no side-effects. In other words, if they act like medicine would act ideally (which of course isn't the case because taking something is bound to do things to you different to taking nothing like in homepathy). Oh, and quite happy to accept some other set of experts' opinions and advice, even if it's the same old, same old set of remedies they give everyone else too. I mean how many silly names can you come up with for sugar pills? Yep, sad to see science being replaced by all this silliness. At least it's not harmful, I suppose, and can even do some good emotionally etc.

I personally believe science (medicine especially) has lost an understanding of the power of observation. Or perhaps more accurately studies that rely on obervations don't make it into high impact factor journals. Of course that is sometimes appropriate but not always. I love reading journals like medical hypotheses - there's some great ideas in there. Currently if we don't understand something we find ways to 'prove' that it's incorrect. The example I know best being various autism/environmental links.

Went to an autism conference a few weeks ago. Over 1000 scientists in attendance. I expected to be frustrated, but in fact came away very excited. Within the walls of the conference (even if it doesn't make into journals) there was a lot of serious discussion about things I had thought would be taboo. So the role of vaccinations in triggering autism was discussed. So much about environmental triggers- and lots and lots of progress being made in that area. The reasons for gut problems were discussed. Many people were taking a holistic view and these are beginning (sloooowly) to be published. It was all very encouraging. A little depressingly - in the main this seemed to be because in the last few years parent led groups are starting to fund a lot of autism science. So the studies are beginning to get funding - and of course things that are parent led start with the anecdotal and with completely unscientific observation. The methodologies being used now are robust - but they're beginning to explain the observations - the observations that have been dismissed as parent's imagination for the last 10 years.

IN the autism field at least basing research on observation seems to be paying dividends. Too late for ds1, but maybe it will be in time for ds2 and ds3 when they have to make decisions about any kids they have.

Off topic but some thoughts.

research undertaken that the colour of drugs prescribed can affect the reported effectiveness

The studies on perceived action of coloured drugs showed that red, yellow, and orange are associated with a stimulant effect, while blue and green are related to a tranquillising effect.

The trials that assessed the impact of the colour of drugs on their effectiveness showed inconsistent differences between colours. The quality of the methods of these trials was variable. Hypnotic, sedative, and anxiolytic drugs were more likely than antidepressants to be green, blue, or purple.

Conclusion was Colours affect the perceived action of a drug and seem to influence the effectiveness of a drug.

individual belief and expectation of treatment can alter outcomes

"First, do no harm..."

"Honestly, why does anyone think this might work?" Because lots of the believers think it's just a kinder, milder version of some herbal medicine. I've heard it so many times this one.