Homeopathy in Childbirth - objections from hospital midwife

[Rolf]

I have booked a doula for my (hopefully) imminent labour. We have been to see a homeopath together and plan for her to throw remedies in my mouth whilst I'm in labour.

I was told yesterday by a very reliable source (my hairdresser!!) that a friend of his recently delivered at the same hospital and when her doula started giving her homeopathic remedies, the midwife got very worked up and asked her to stop. I'm not sure whether or not she did, but the hospital is now undertaking an internal inquiry (whether generally or into this particular case, I'm not sure). The patient apparently was perfectly happy with her care from both the hospital and the doula so I think it's for the purposes of clarification rather than a big witch-hunt.

I'm slightly concerned that because of this there will be generally twitchy atmosphere about someone not employed by the trust giving a patient any sort of medication. I've added to my birth plan "I would like to use homeopathic remedies in labour and am happy for my doula to administer them". Do you think that's adequate or should I go further? Should I write out a list of the remedies I'm taking in with me, the name of the homeopath who dispensed them and a more sweeping waiver? Or is that the litigator in me speaking?

I have quick labours so won't be able to waste time debating with them. My doula is well-known at the hospital and I think will be very good at this sort of advocacy. And I have a good relationship with the hospital although as it's a big teaching hospital there's every chance that in labour I won't be looked after by anyone I know.

Any thoughts would be v welcome.

[getbackinyouryurtjimjams]

Er no that's not what I was suggesting at all. I used "orthodox doctor" to make the point that they were being taught when the patient really needed to go to their GP (as opposed to an alternative complementary practitioner). TBH the last thing most homeopaths want to be compared with is a doctor.

'As long as the keep within the limits of their knowledge'. Have comes across more people in the orthodox medical profession working outside of their limits of knowledge than alternative practitioners tbh.

[MarsLady]

a doula shouldn't be administering the homeopathic treatments. Will your partner also be there?

Hard to read entire thread as I'm taking advantage of free internet access on my phone.

[MarsLady]

I carry a homeopathic kit which my clients are welcome to use. And my scepticism about homeopathy was put to the side when I saw the positive affects on DD1

[MsDemeanor]

How can it be 'misogynistic' to say homeopathy doesn't have, nor could have, any effect? A homeopathic 'remedy' has no active ingredients whatsoever. None.

[MsDemeanor]

I'm a complete sceptic about homeopathy. Of course if someone else wants to take it, that's absolutely their choice. It is clearly harmless and if it makes you feel better great. But I think to accuse anyone who has seen that no proper study has shown it to be effective of 'misogyny' is daft.

[Rolf]

Marslady - my DH will be there but I think the doula will be more on the ball about the homeopathic remedies. Hopefully most of the time I'll be fine making the decisions for myself and I can just ask her to hand things over. But if things get particularly fast and furious (as my labours tend to) I need her to do my thinking for me.

Actually, that's the time when I'm most likely to want the aconite so I could always add to my birth plan that I want her to give me aconite during transition.

I think she'll handle the situation fine - she has a very gentle, non-confrontational manner but knows what I want and will be good at making sure I get it, without creating tensions. So pleased I have booked her

Agree that most people who advocate homeopathy in childbirth are people who have seen its benefits, eg midwives, doulas, multips...

[littlepinkpixie]

scottishmummy "Dr Harold Shipman was a GP and registered with GMC as an accountable professional.however he did not dispense any orthodox treatments."

I know this is a bit o/t but i thought that one of the reasons that it took so long to detect what Harold Shipman was up to was because in many areas he worked normally, and many of his patients thought he was an excellent.

not really relevant to the debate at hand I know....

[ScottishMummy]

point being just because someone appears to be upstanding member of society does not mean they necessarily are. he abused his trust. medicine does not necessarily = can do no wrong

[purpleduck]

"Purpleduck,glad your son got better, but I promise you he would have got better with a pill of, well sugary nothing, which is what homeopathic medicines are"

Seashell, my son was under two he did not know what he was being treated for, so I don't think the placebo arguement works.

Ok, so homeopathic medicine doesn't have anything beneficial in it that we can test

I think it just means that we don't have the means to test it yet.

For MILLIONS of years, herbal medicine the only medicine available, and was largely effective. Still worked, even though they did not know WHY it worked.

I think it is arrogant to assume that we now know everything.

[purpleduck]

"Purpleduck,glad your son got better, but I promise you he would have got better with a pill of, well sugary nothing, which is what homeopathic medicines are"

Seashell, my son was under two he did not know what he was being treated for, so I don't think the placebo arguement works.

Ok, so homeopathic medicine doesn't have anything beneficial in it that we can test

I think it just means that we don't have the means to test it yet.

For MILLIONS of years, herbal medicine the only medicine available, and was largely effective. Still worked, even though they did not know WHY it worked.

I think it is arrogant to assume that we now know everything.

[ScienceTeacher]

Given that homeopathy doesn't actually have any clinical effects, I can't imagine they are overly concerned. Perhaps they are worried about having someone who thinks they are some kind of expert getting in the way.

[CristinaTheAstonishing]

Purpleduck - homeopathy has nothing in common with herbal medicine. Worlds apart. The reasoning behind WHY homeopathy "works" is stated very clearly. It's just totally bonkers. It's not that homeopaths say "it might work, we don't know how", it's "it does work and this is how" and then comes the string of garbage about milionth time dilution and curing like with like and the rest which I'm too bored to type out just now.

Getbackjimjams - so homeopaths wouldn't want to be considered a tiny bit like a real doctor? So why confuse things with using terms like "treatment", "cure", "medicine" and the like?

[CristinaTheAstonishing]

"Perhaps they are worried about having someone who thinks they are some kind of expert getting in the way." Yes, but when you hear the info diluted (homeopathy, get it? boom! boom!) through so many sources, God only knows if there was any issue at all or something that got made up in the chain transmission.

[ScienceTeacher]

It's worrying if midwives endorse it, but they are only human.

We now teach about homeopathy in GCSE Chemistry, so hopefully common sense will seep through eventually.

[littlepinkpixie]

Purpleduck - you dont need to know about placebos for them to work. He doesnt need to know what he was being treated for. Also, his improvement may have been coincidental.
That is why effectiveness of medicines is usually tested with trials involving lots of patients, the experience of one person doesnt allow you to say if something works or not.

You mention that homeopathic medicine has nothing of benefit in it that we can test for. I think that you are right about that. It is also true to say that homeopathic medicine shows no beneficial effect over placebo - even if we dont know how something works or what the active ingrediant is, that doesnt mean that convential medicine wouldnt embrace it if it had a beneficial effect.

[reikizen]

I use homeopathy at home on myself, children and cats. Great stuff it is too as far as I'm concerned. Not sure how cats can have a placebo effect but ho hum what do I know. I can't believe the trust some people on this thread are putting in medical trials and the medical profession in general. Look at most medical trials with a bit of knowledge about the subject and you'll be amazed by how flawed they are and how you end up knowing less than you did when you started reading them!
The more I learn about medicine (I'm a student midwife) the less I trust it, tbh. I 'm hoping to go on to practice homeopathy at a later stage as I'm convinced it can help us claw back some control over our births in this increasingly medicalized environment.

[CristinaTheAstonishing]

"with a bit of knowledge" A little bit of knowledge IS a dangerous thing, they say. Point proven here yet again.

And who says cats improve? The cats themselves or could it be the human owner who believes in this stuff and paid for it and tried it and isn't now going to say he was a mug so of course he sees vast improvement. Cruel IMO if a vet would have been more appropriate. But they are more expensive too. Something to do with their training and having some real knowledge.

[CristinaTheAstonishing]

So Reikizen, if you don't believe in medicine what the hell are you doing training as a midwife? I'm sure chanting and such like ciost less. Is it because the only credibility comes from having soome medical (midwifery in your case) training? Why not just go with homeopathy and save yourself and the taxpayer a fortune training.

[getbackinyouryurtjimjams]

I have yet to meet a homeopath who would like to be thought of as a 'doctor'. It's certainly a title they've never bestowed upon themselves (unlike say chiropractors) and the very first essay in homeopathic training is usually to identify the differences between homeopathic/orthodox treatment and definitions of health.

Homeopathy originated somewhere between blood letting and orthodox medicine as we know it. So their terms were in use before modern day medicine. It's all there to read to this day.

Homeopathy originally became popular because it killed fewer people than the alternatives available at the time. Orthodox medicine likewise has become popular because there are obviously things is does very well. Surgery for example, bacterial infections (although whoops they certainly forgot the potential problems with overuse of antibs and we're paying the price now- they were warned at the time- by evolutionary biologists) and so on. However there are many areas that orthodox medicine can't offer a great deal. Many viral infections for example, chronic pain, psoriasis, close to my own heart- ASD, dodgy backs. There are some situations when I'd choose an alternative practitioner over orthodox medicine, likewise there are times when I'd choose orthodox (and an alternative practitioner would no doubt push me that way too).

I'm much more careful about orthodox medications now. DS1 is paying the price. I'm no longer blase about side effects/knock on effects of pharmaceutica. There are times when of course you accept that the benefit outweighs the risks but I personally prefer to hold off these days. Once bitten.

[littlepinkpixie]

It is actually illegal for you to treat your cats with homeopathy

animal laws

RCVS

[getbackinyouryurtjimjams]

little -0 I think it's just practitioners who can't treat animals using homepathy unless they're a vet (think this is more to do with protecting vets paypackets though ) I think owners can give remedies themselves.

[MsDemeanor]

The placebo effect works on the observer as well as or instead of the patient - ie if you look for an improvement you tend to find one. Also, many conditions wax and wane and people do improve all by themselves. There are no proper studies that show homeopathy works better than a placebo, which must tell us something, surely? Even homeopaths admit there are no active ingredients in the 'remedies', which makes it very different from herbal medicine. Orthodox (or real!) medicine uses many plant extracts. I agree medicines that are effective may also cause damage. Homeopathy cannot cause damage, but that's surely because it has no effect.

[ScottishMummy]

littlepinkpixie - what a fascinating link compelling reading

[CristinaTheAstonishing]

Good link - now I know what farriers do Seriously, though, I had no idea you couldn't give your own animal an injection. I don't have a pet and I haven't got any injections around but still interesting to see how humane & dignified the law expects animals to be treated.

[ScienceTeacher]

which is the sentiment behind double blind testing. Neither the patient nor the observer knows what is being tested.