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Childbirth

Share experiences and get support around labour, birth and recovery.

Homeopathy in Childbirth - objections from hospital midwife

334 replies

Rolf · 07/06/2008 16:18

I have booked a doula for my (hopefully) imminent labour. We have been to see a homeopath together and plan for her to throw remedies in my mouth whilst I'm in labour.

I was told yesterday by a very reliable source (my hairdresser!!) that a friend of his recently delivered at the same hospital and when her doula started giving her homeopathic remedies, the midwife got very worked up and asked her to stop. I'm not sure whether or not she did, but the hospital is now undertaking an internal inquiry (whether generally or into this particular case, I'm not sure). The patient apparently was perfectly happy with her care from both the hospital and the doula so I think it's for the purposes of clarification rather than a big witch-hunt.

I'm slightly concerned that because of this there will be generally twitchy atmosphere about someone not employed by the trust giving a patient any sort of medication. I've added to my birth plan "I would like to use homeopathic remedies in labour and am happy for my doula to administer them". Do you think that's adequate or should I go further? Should I write out a list of the remedies I'm taking in with me, the name of the homeopath who dispensed them and a more sweeping waiver? Or is that the litigator in me speaking?

I have quick labours so won't be able to waste time debating with them. My doula is well-known at the hospital and I think will be very good at this sort of advocacy. And I have a good relationship with the hospital although as it's a big teaching hospital there's every chance that in labour I won't be looked after by anyone I know.

Any thoughts would be v welcome.

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christiana · 25/06/2008 09:51

Message withdrawn

CoteDAzur · 25/06/2008 10:36
christiana · 25/06/2008 11:16

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Bridie3 · 25/06/2008 11:20

What's wrong with the Telegraph being someone's paper of choice? You may not agree with its politics but its science and health features are excellent. I have to read all the broadsheets for work and have no strong preferences but I'd probably pick the Telegraph for its health features.

Bridie3 · 25/06/2008 11:22

...sorry, pressed Send before I meant to, but actually you will probably find more articles on complementary medicine in the Telegraph than you will elsewhere. And the attitude is probably just as open-minded than you will find in the Guardian. Which I also find good, I hasten to add.

CoteDAzur · 25/06/2008 11:33

A homeopathic cold cure called Occillococcinum is made by freeze-drying and pulverising extract of duck liver and then diluting it several hundred times. Homeopaths believe that the more dilute the medicine, the more effective the cure. This product is certainly a case in point.

If just a single molecule of the liver were left in the pills its concentration would be 1 in 10 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000.

At approximately 1 part in 10 to the power of 400, this is far more than the total number of atoms in the Universe.

The US News & World Report recently reported that to make the product only one duck per year is killed. The magazine dubbed the unlucky, liverless member of the Anatidae family "the 20-million dollar duck", otherwise known as the duck that laid the golden egg.

New Scientist quoting US News & World Report 17 February 1997 issue.

Bridie3 · 25/06/2008 11:38

Wow-those zeros certainly make the eyes ache!

CoteDAzur · 25/06/2008 11:42

christiana - Believers claim that water has memory of what it once contained, and that homeopathy is 'energy medicine' so doesn't have to have any active ingredients. And hence the energy effect thingie gets stronger the more you dilute.

Which is of course nonesense. If water had such lingering effects from stuff it once contained, that would be very bad news for the hundreds of millions who drink recycled water on a regular basis.

It would also mean we are seriously harming our children by diluting their juice or medication.

CoteDAzur · 25/06/2008 11:53

Nonsense, even.

sabire · 25/06/2008 12:27

"The ethical question, obviously, is how a doctor (a real one, not the 'trained homeopath', whatever that means) can bring himself to recommend a sugar pill to a patient with a real suffering"

Yes. And you might well ask how a doctor can send a suffering patient away from his or her surgery empty handed and uncomforted after a 5 minute consultation, and yet it happens all the time.

People generally go to alternative and complementary practitioners when their GP has failed to provide them with anything to relieve their symptoms, and in my experience usually come away from their consultations with their alternative practitioner feeling a whole lot better.

"It's different when doctor might suspect the problem is a psychosomatic and decides to try a placebo"

A problem doesn't have to be psychosomatic to respond to the placebo effect, and the placebo effect can cause clinically measurable changes in the condition of the patient.

And GP's admit to rogue prescribing and using placebos: "A study of Danish general practitioners found that 48% had prescribed a placebo at least 10 times in the past year. The most frequently prescribed placebos were antibiotics for viral infections, and vitamins for fatigue. Specialists and hospital-based physicians reported much lower rates of placebo use. (Hróbjartsson & Norup 2003) A 2004 study in the British Medical Journal of physicians in Israel found that 60% used placebos in their medical practice, most commonly to "fend off" requests for unjustified medications or to calm a patient. Of the physicians who reported using placebos, only 15% told their patients they were receiving placebos or non-specific medications. (Nitzan & Lichtenberg 2004) An accompanying editorial stated, An accompanying editorial stated,

"The placebo effect, thought of as the result of the inert pill, can be better understood as an effect of the relationship between doctor and patient. Adding the doctor's caring to medical care affects the patient's experience of treatment, reduces pain, and may affect outcome. This survey makes it clear that doctors continue to use placebos, and most think they help."

"The editorial suggested there were problems with Hróbjartsson and Gøtzsche's methods and argued that their results show that placebos can't cure everything, but don't prove that the placebo effect cures nothing. The editorial concluded, "We cannot afford to dispense with any treatment that works, even if we are not certain how it does." (Spiegel 2004)"

Unlike GP's who so often prescribe antibiotics for conditions they know ab's are ineffective for, at least homeopaths aren't giving you a placebo that may result in you developing candida and a worrying vulnerability to antibiotic resistent infections.

christiana · 25/06/2008 12:51

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beautyscientist · 25/06/2008 12:57

What would be really good would be homeopathic cure for gullibility.

christiana · 25/06/2008 12:57

Message withdrawn

CoteDAzur · 25/06/2008 13:01

"And you might well ask how a doctor can send a suffering patient away from his or her surgery empty handed and uncomforted after a 5 minute consultation, and yet it happens all the time."

Yes, malpractice is also unethical. And what is your point? That because some doctors act in an unethical manner (send away suffering patients after 5 min consultations) that all doctors should act unethically (prescribe things they know are ineffective)?

"come away from their consultations with their alternative practitioner feeling a whole lot better"

People also talk to their priests and feel better. Again, what is your point re homeopathy?

"A problem doesn't have to be psychosomatic to respond to the placebo effect"

I didn't say it did.

I said it would be understandable that a doctor would prescribe placebo in cases he suspects to be psychocomatic in origin. It would be from an ethical point of view for a doctor to prescribe a placebo the rest of the time.

Surely good practice would be to find the root cause and prescribe an effective treatment. Not just give a sugar pill and send patient away, keep fingers crossed and hope for placebo effect.

CoteDAzur · 25/06/2008 13:09

Oh and most people who visit fortunetellers also come out happy and intend to revisit. That does not mean that this is really an effective way of learning about one's future.

beautyscientist · 25/06/2008 14:04

I may be wrong, but I think it is against medical ethics to prescribe a placebo?

If so, then homeopathic remedies would provide a handy way of handing out a placebo without violating ethics.

sabire · 25/06/2008 14:50

"Yes, malpractice is also unethical. And what is your point?"

It's not malpractice when a doctor sends a patient away empty handed and uncomforted: it's about the limitations of conventional medicine as practiced in this country. Doctors are limited to short consultations with patients because that's the way the NHS functions. That's the reality of medical care for most people in this country. It's also the case that conventional medicine simply doesn't have all the answers, which is why people turn to complementary therapies for relief from symptoms that conventional medicines are ineffective at treating.

getbackinyouryurtjimjams · 25/06/2008 14:50

It's back to health isn't it. And whether or not it can be fixed.

At 25 I was sent to see a consultant because I had something wrong with my back- it kept going into spasm to the point where I couldn't stand. I knew exactly how it had been done etc. The consultant asked me what triggered it - I said could be anything- for example bending down to pick something up or carrying some shopping. HIs advice after years of medical school and no examination?

"Well I suggest you don't do any shopping".

Aged 25?? What sort of shit advice was that. I waited 14 weeks for that bit of genius.

I went to a chiropractor who sorted it out - so that 99% of the time my back is now fine.

I think this was the point of the GP in Cullompton - the article I linked to earlier. He started skeptical but now sees real value in his combined clinic- patients that he could offer nothing to now can go and see a complementary therapist (and he's teamed up with people offering things I've never even heard of) - and they feel better. So he sees his job as being done. His patients feel better.

I like doctors who take an interest in alternatiive medicine because I've found they tend to have the same view of health as I do and although I don't expect them to offer me anything alternative I find I tend to agree with and trust their prescribing.

Cote you can scorn as much as you like- but you've missed out an important stage in the preparation of a remedy which means that it's not simple dilution (and no it still doesn't 'explain' how homeopathy works so it's not worth reproducing here).

CoteDAzur · 25/06/2008 19:44

Please do share, jimjams. What is this 'important stage' in the preparation of a homeopathic 'remedy'?

CoteDAzur · 25/06/2008 20:06

sabire & jimjams - I am truly sorry to hear just how bad and even negligent your doctors have been. If that is the state of medical care in the UK (and I thankfully never had to experience it), then no wonder you are turning to quack medicine alternative treatments.

In countries which I have lived, even Turkey which I assume you will not consider more developed than UK, I have never been dismissed by a doctor in such unhelpful terms ("don't go shopping then") and without even an examination. That is negligence. It is not and cannot be normal practice.

Although I understand your disillusion, in your place, I would have gone to another doctor. Your system sounds like this is not easy, though. (14 weeks!?!)

getbackinyouryurtjimjams · 25/06/2008 21:07

No cote, I can't be bothered to share because you're not interested and it won't do anything to change your mind. You've already rejected energy medicine - and homeopathy places itself firmly (along with acupuncture in that field).

If someone is interested in CAM I would advise them to find a decent practitioner (so preferably a recommendation) and then give it a go. If it works for them they'll go back, if it doesn't they won't.

The consultant I saw was pretty dire- he didn't even examine me except to ask be to bend forwards, but he's not necessarily unusual. I saw an equally dire consultant 10 years later with ds2. He had been referred by a different consultant, didn't bother to read the notes, misunderstood why we'd been referred and cut me off half way through my explanation (and I was keeping it brief). Then sent ds2 for a totally unnecessary x-ray. I've seen 5 consultants/registrars for ds1's autism and one (a registrar) has been excellent. The rest crap.

Oh yes it's pretty normal practice, although I am pleasantly surprised when I see someone good (ds3 hospitalised a couple of years ago- all good, ds1 in A&E recently- excellent consultant).

However much you complain that it can't be true- my personal experience is that CAM practitioners have helped my family and improved our health and so we'll continue to use them.

With that I'm off to email the shiatsu practitioner I have found who specialises in autism. I think he could really help ds1 deal with his need for deep pressure- and if he does then it will mean I get strangled less, which can only be a god thing.

beautyscientist · 26/06/2008 07:50

I think it is important to remember that science is based on evidence and data. Although the theory behind homepathy is out of kilter with our modern understanding of the world, any evidence that it does work would be seized upon by scientists. You would become very famous indeed if you were the one to find the supporting evidence. Scientists aren't at all close minded generally. By contrast with homeopathy, aromatherapy can be shown to be effective in some cases and this data gets reported in the scientific literature.

I have just blogged about it if you are interested.

colinsbeautypages.co.uk/the-smell-of-coffee-perks-you-up/

Homeopaths aren't singled out for criticism out of some conservative prejudice. They are just wrong.

sabire · 26/06/2008 10:30

CoteDAzur - I trust you've also never suffered from any condition for which conventional medicine has no adequate response? I would suspect that this is perhaps at the root of your lack of understanding or sympathy ("I am truly sorry to hear just how bad and even negligent your doctors have been" - weasel words - you don't care about our suffering, all you care about is proving yourself right, even if it means showing utter, utter disrespect for our own experiences and our perceptions of what is going on in our own bodies).

I have a condition called Gilbert's Syndrome. I became unwell in January - I had jaundice, gastric problems, extreme exhaustion and malaise. It took 8 GP appointments, three consultant appointments, a huge battery of blood tests and a liver scan to diagnose me. It's June now and I'm still unwell, still tired, still jaundiced. I've not been offered any treatment for this condition because apparently it's a common, benign condition which is generally asymptomatic - although the medical literature notes a good proportion of those of us who have it do have unpleasant symptoms of the kind I've mentioned.

I've been told that there is no conventional treatment my doctor can offer me. I've spent hours on the internet and spoken to a very good consultant in gastric medicine and there really is NOTHING that conventional medicine has that will help my condition. Would you say I shouldn't bother to seek alternative treatments to help me cope with my symptoms? Because it's all rubbish? What do you say to the hundreds of thousands of people who find these therapies helpful for a range of conditions? "You're wrong - you don't feel better, and I know you don't feel better because I have this research paper here which proves that the therapy you've used doesn't work"?

You simply have no respect for other people's feelings or experiences - it's an awful sort of arrogance. I have no problem with you saying that there is no scientific proof that these therapies work - but to call those people who practice these therapies unethical crooks and the people who use them naive and stupid? It's very unkind and very narrow.

stleger · 26/06/2008 10:47

The 'effective advice' for a condition my daughter has is 'avoid infection, which will be easier over the summer'. After 2 spells in hospital on a drip. A gp who is also a practising alternative therapist is trying various remedies and probiotics. I don't totally believe in homeopathy - despite mainstream fertility consultant kicking us out, a year of classical homeopathy and 3 children - but I believe in trying it!

bruxeur · 26/06/2008 10:59

LOL @ "I can't be bothered to share because you're not interested and it won't do anything to change your mind".

I have a SUPER SECRET that you can't know because YOU'RE NOT IN OUR GANG.

And you SMELL.

lollitylollity lol.