Homeopathy in Childbirth - objections from hospital midwife

[Rolf]

I have booked a doula for my (hopefully) imminent labour. We have been to see a homeopath together and plan for her to throw remedies in my mouth whilst I'm in labour.

I was told yesterday by a very reliable source (my hairdresser!!) that a friend of his recently delivered at the same hospital and when her doula started giving her homeopathic remedies, the midwife got very worked up and asked her to stop. I'm not sure whether or not she did, but the hospital is now undertaking an internal inquiry (whether generally or into this particular case, I'm not sure). The patient apparently was perfectly happy with her care from both the hospital and the doula so I think it's for the purposes of clarification rather than a big witch-hunt.

I'm slightly concerned that because of this there will be generally twitchy atmosphere about someone not employed by the trust giving a patient any sort of medication. I've added to my birth plan "I would like to use homeopathic remedies in labour and am happy for my doula to administer them". Do you think that's adequate or should I go further? Should I write out a list of the remedies I'm taking in with me, the name of the homeopath who dispensed them and a more sweeping waiver? Or is that the litigator in me speaking?

I have quick labours so won't be able to waste time debating with them. My doula is well-known at the hospital and I think will be very good at this sort of advocacy. And I have a good relationship with the hospital although as it's a big teaching hospital there's every chance that in labour I won't be looked after by anyone I know.

Any thoughts would be v welcome.

"Frankly, I don't care what people take. I just think it's a very, very stupid thing to do."

What - because it's dangerous?

Or because it DEFINITELY won't make them feel better?

Or because you think they'll DEFINITELY get something from their GP which will do them more good - whatever their condition?

Why do you think people use homeopathy? Given that it's free to see a GP and conventional medicine is generally pretty cheap on prescription?

Most of the people who I know who use homeopathy are perfectly sensible, normal people with good social networks and reasonable relationships with their GP's. Do you think that someone has to be socially inadequate or something to consider using alternative treatments?

Sabire - I think someone who uses homeopathy couldn't have read about it. If they'd read about it, they couldn't believe the crap.

I've read all the comments on this thread & would just like to add my voice to the pro-homoeopathy people & to offer a personal response to the OP.

My mum trained as a homoeopath many years ago & the sullen teenage sceptic in me was converted when I crashed head first into a lamp-post when riding my bike at the age of 13. I really hit hard & when I hobbled home my mum, after ruling out concussion, immediately tried to give me some high potency Arnica & something else for the shock. I remember screaming at her "I don't want any of your hippy medicine!" but was eventually convinced to take what she was offering, albeit very reluctantly. Although I was hurt I was really hoping that her remedies (literally the size & shape of a couple of grains of sugar, salt, sand or whatever) wouldn't work so I could mock her some more & vent my self-righteous anger in her direction but I had to eat my words when I felt much better: the swelling on my forehead went down within an hour & there wasn't a black eye in sight the next day (I was sure I'd wake up to a massive shiner).

Anyway, that was how I came to believe in the power & efficacity of homoeopathic remedies, I was so anti-anything my mum was into at the time there's no way it could have been a placebo effect.

I have since been attracted to/very interested in alternative/complementary therapies & have also used a variety of them (including homoeopathy/Tissue Salts, aromatherapy, hypnotherapy, reflexology & acupuncture) to help relieve allergic symptoms, combat stress, ease muscular tension, recuperate from invasive dental treatment & most recently to prepare for, support me during & recover from the birth of my DS (1st child) who is now 9 months old.

Dear Rolf,

All I can say is follow your heart/intuition on this one.

I wrote a detailed birth plan which acknowledged & showed respect for the expertise & experience of the midwives attending my birth but was assertive & very clear in expressing my desire to have a natural labour & birth with no conventional medical/surgical intervention unless absolutely necessary.

I made specific reference to the homoeopathic remedies I would possibly need to use & gave express permission to my birth partners (2 old, good friends with 8 & 4 children themselves) to administer them to me. They had talked at length with my mother about this & I was confident they would be able to choose the appropriate remedies if I myself was unable to.

I had also been following a hypnobirthing programme & asked for all present to be very careful in the language they used around me, particularly regarding the word "pain" which I didn't want mentioned at all & gave alternative words & phrases that I would associate positively with & not be fearful of (the only person who showed complete disregard for this was the booking in nurse who didn't have take the time to read the paper I handed her on my arrival at the labour ward reception).

In the end though I was blessed to have 2 very open-minded & sensitive midwives who really honoured what I had written & did everything they could to make my birth experience as I wished it. One of them was a trained homoeopath herself but did not intervene when my friends were giving me the remedies (I took Caulophyllum to help me reach that magic 10cm as it had taken hours for me to get to just 3cm, Kali Phos towards the end when I was exhausted & needed a boost, Arnica 200c just before & a couple of hours after delivery & 30c for a few days either side of my due date to help the healing process). I spoke to her about it afterwards & she said she was listening to them discussing what to give me & was happy with the decisions they made based on her observations but I never thought to ask her at the time what she would have done if she had strongly disagreed with their choices.

Interestingly I asked the midwife girlfriend of a another good friend of mine to look over my birth plan before I finalised it & one thing she said was that it might initimidate some less experienced midwives or annoy some of the more traditional old-school ones. She herself thought it was really good as it showed I had done a lot of research & knew my mind but had also taken into account the unpredictability of the whole thing & used words like "prefer", "ideally", "aim" etc. to convey my acceptance of the fact that things might not go as I hoped & that I & my birth partners would be willing to listen to their professional judgements in the event of any significant complications.

I passed the kit on to another friend who had a baby girl 4 weeks ago & she was very pleased to have had it too (although she used different remedies at different points she found it equally helpful)!

It is your right to choose how you approach this. I really hope you have a great birth & that you will have the confidence to use whatever you think will provide you with relief & support when you most need it, & that the hospital staff will be as accommodating as those at the (NHS) Birth Centre I attended.

OK, the other alternative is they had a knock to the head when young. V childish, MamaTama, but I couldn't resist it.

Oh dear Cristina, if i had the energy I'd feel sorry for you!
I think you're missing the point of the OP & I personally don't want to waste time trading jokes jibes.

No cote.

I used my first remedy expecting nothing to happen. There was rather a big positive effect (and no negative effect at all). Which as I explained earlier left me rather perplexed although I strongly suspected conincidence. . So later, the opportunity came to try homeopathy again and my goodness it worked again. After I'd used it a number of times and found that it worked each time with no bad effects I stopped worrying about how it worked and just got on and used it when appropriate.

No faith. I have no emotional investment in homeopathy- if it stops working I'll stop using it.

I do find it staggering that some of the most patronising people on this thread are worried about being patronised by a con artist. I've never felt patronised by any homeopath I've ever met (and I've met quite a few although have only consulted 2). I can't quite say the same about doctors. I'm surprised its seen as a 'very very stupid things to do' given so many positive stories on this thread. Surely controlling MS with a sugar pill is better than some full on conventional medicine. It seems that a neurologist thinks so.

I have to agree with sabire really. But also add there are many conditions that conventional medicine has little/nothing to offer. If patients choose to take control of their condition and seek out alternatives and try things that they think might help. Pouring scorn on them when they find something- whatever it is- is terrible, terrible doctoring.

I had a GP once who was remarkably offended that I wanted to go and see a chiropractor about a back I was in absolute agony with. "well if you must waste your money" she huffed as she handed across more pain killers. Well I went anyway. The weird thing was she referred me to a physio - but the physio used maniuplation in the same way as the chiropractor. The chiropractor just did more of it. I realised then that she didn't really know what she was talking about.

I am so glad your friend found that alternative medicine helped their MS JimJams. Anyone with the condition will know that the conventional route has little to offer. The fact that mine is now cured, dormant, healed whatever you want to call it is of relief to me and surprise to others. As I said, can't say exactly what stopped it all but it wasn't conventional medicine - I didn't take any. Divine intervention maybe? Who knows, I really don't care, I have a normal life back and that is all that matters to me. Sincerley sorry that Cristina's cousin hasn't found any relief, perhaps if the religious route doesn't work out she should ask her GP for a referral to a homeopath.

P.S Rolf - Have you had your little one yet? Do let us know the outcome!

Sabire - I am both clever and affectionate. You are not my patients here so allow me to act in a personal capacity. Warning: this may include arrongance.

MamaTama - come on, you must have expected such a comeback with your intro. It was just too funny. Read it again when you're not in a happier mood.

Lolsy - she's tried everything, orthodox and un-orthodox. MS still there, up and down, as with MS, but still there.

Interesting article in today's Telegraph.

homeopathy is a fabulous treatment and generally effective in 75% of cases...although there is no evidence to prove that it works if you take it a week before..for bruising 200c arnica 2-3 daily after birth works, & bellis per is deep tissue healer too. i took homeopathy only lat week at the birth of my beauiful little girl ( at a major London Teaching hospital).....the doctors were fine with me taking homeopathy(I had to have a planned c-section unfortunately, but have made an amazing recovery), some midwives were sniffy and some ok..it's all down to personal beliefs, once you have a qualified homeopath's advice then there should not be a problem.
For the record, the Royal London Homepathic Hospital was established in London, homeopathy has been availible on the NHS since the 1940s and there is a women's clinic run by a fabulous set of GPs who are fully trained homeopaths...they also run lectures every month for pregnant women...on the use of homeopathy during pregnancy/childbirth. Any women's 'problems' you can get your GP to refer you the clinic for treatment............so all you 'Seashells' out there know what to do!it doesn't work for everyone but that's not to say it doesnt work......

I forgot to add that acupuncture for example is a 'conventional medicine'in China.When I lived in another city I saw a Chinese GP who ran a private practise out of her home, acupuncture was part of the training in the way trainees do a stint in A&E, obstetrics, surgery etc.....it's considered normal practise in Japan too.....and like anything I firmly believe part of your body's response is down to how good the person carrying out the treatment is.......a bit like teachers for example, you have an awful teacher and you will really dislke history/art/whatever subject...have a good teacher and they will hep you flourish...GPs, homeopaths..all fall into that category too- some have natural flair for their job, some dont.

Message withdrawn

"homeopathy is a fabulous treatment and generally effective in 75% of cases"

Is there a name for this planet you live in, where homeopathy is 'effective in 75% of cases'?

Seriously, what is your source for this claim? Where did this 75% figure come from?

I suppose you are not aware that there is a 1 million USD reward for whoever proves that homeopathy works better than sugar pills. It's still not claimed. What does that tell you?

"homeopathy is a fabulous treatment and generally effective in 75% of cases...although there is no evidence to prove that it works "

Have NEVER heard of that Pruners. Would be interested though. No, the first remedy I used (as described above) was common old silica. Think I struck lucky with it....

Quite a few people have used homeopathic secretin with children with autism, but I never have (in part because I'm not going for an autism 'cure'). And I've always used homeopathy to help ds1 in ways that aren't really related to his autism (if that makes sense).

"Interesting article in today's Telegraph"

Is that your paper of choice then?

Figures really.......

Did YOU complain to mumsnet about the post in which I made the point that your comments on this thread show you up as someone who lacks an understanding of the complexity of human experience, and who therefore is probably not well suited to general practice?

A mother has posted here about her struggles with her severely autistic child and one of the things - homeopathy - that's given her and her family some help. You've responded by saying that homeopaths are 'con artists' (ie - criminals who deliberately set out to exploit unwell people), that homeopathy is 'stupid' and 'crap' and that people who use it are naive. You've manage to completely ignore almost everything she says about the impact of homeopathy on her son's behaviour and general health as though it's somehow irrelevant to the discussion that's going on here.

And no - we're not your patients. Thank god. In my my experience doctors who have no respect for the feelings and experiences of individuals as regards their own health and treatment, are the very worst sort of doctors because they DON'T listen. They come to every encounter with a patient with a narrow agenda, and everything that falls outside of that or presents a challenge to their view of how human beings 'work' is disregarded, no matter how significant to the patient.

Ah but I'm just a mother sabire. Which means I'm incapable of knowing that my son regressed (I just didn't notice much about him before obviously and imagined him talking), according to one HCP I was 'well known for being in denial' (because I disagreed with her statement that 'he's not capable of anything is he' - never mind that I spotted he was autistic over a year before the medical profession) and so on and so forth. Doctor's always know better than mothers!

I completely agree with you about the importance of listening. We had ds1's yearly paed appointment this week. I was really hoping we'd have the same doctor as we've had for the last 3 years- because she is so good at listening and discussing alternatives. She's always been interested in novel approaches to autism (such as diet). Unfortunately we had a different doc who looked at me like I was mad when I asked about carnitine (mentioned to me by a medical doctor/researcher as something we should try). She took the (peer-reviewed) papers I gave her, but have heard nothing back and she did kind of glaze over. She also told me I was mistaken and that ds1's strange movements (which she didn't see) were entirely under his control and he was doing them on purpose even though I'd specifically explained that wasn't the case and the doctor last year had agreed with me. I was hoping for a sensible discussion after a further year's observation.....

I'm rambling, but yes - it was a disappointing consultations after the experience of the last 3 years.

In trial after trial homeopathy has been shown to be about as effective as a placebo. That actually isn't too bad a result. The placebo effect is pretty strong. If I were a midwife and someone I was responsible for said that they wanted a homeopathic treatment I would certainly go along with it. It can't do any harm. It might well do some good. And having an argument with them would obviously not be appropriate.

Is there anything in homeopathy? I really doubt it, but as a scientist I have to keep an open mind. There is no evidence it works at the moment, but some may emerge in the future.

What I do know from direct personal experience is that at least some of the people selling homeopathic products don't believe it works. These people are simply charlatans and by buying their products you are lining their pockets. I think that there are honest practitioners of homeopathy as well but I could not recommend their products either.

As a trained medical lab scientists turned complementary therapist, I find the attacks on people who choose to use complementary medicines distasteful, to say the least. Clients who come to complementary therapists have often been let down by the medical fraternity, either by having their concerns dismissed, been poorly or inappropriately treated, or been told to "just learn to live with it".

The so-called "gold standard" of randomised double-blind placebo-controlled trials might be (and often is) used as a stick to bash the complementary therapies; but drugs like thalidomide, Vioxx, Celebrex all went through this gold standard process and it is fairly safe to say that they did NOT conform to Hippocrates first instruction to "do no harm".

Homoeopathy might be contentious in terms of how it works but just because we don't know enough to show how it works, doesn't mean it doesn't. And for all those who deride it by saying "it's just placebo effect", does that really matter? Is it not more important that the patient feels better? isn't that what all health care should be about?

I am not a homoeopath but I have used Nux vom after several heavy nights out to good effect. I find the Bach flower Rescue Remedy to work extrememly well for nervous trauma or shock (or in fact Ainsworth's Recovey Plus is better). Acupressure (can't do needles) has had some amazing effects and I routinely see an osteopath who fixed my transitional vertigo problems, after being told by ENT specialists that I had a permanently damaged inner ear, there was nothing that could be done and I just had to learn to live with it and do dizzy-making exercises several times a day for 10 minutes until my brain gave up responding to them.

I hope you didn't find my post distasteful thumbwitch. It is a fact that some people are profiting from homeopathy while not believing a word of it. That strikes me as pretty distasteful which is why I brought it up. As I said earlier, it might work and we have to be open to any new evidence that comes to light. But at the moment nobody has shown homeopathy to be effective.

"some people are profiting from homeopathy"

Really? Who? There's not a lot of money in homeopathy and it's a 4 year training course that costs quite a bit to become one.

People might sell homeopathic products without believing in it. Does that matter? I don't think its essential that everyone working in Boots agrees to believe in homeopathic medicine. Many women shopkeepers sell porn- does that make them morally bankrupt?

How ethical is it to recommend people take 'remedies' you know will work no better than a sugar pill, though? Especially when you know they are, indeed, sugar pills.

It's one thing when patient wants to take these pills (no harm, so no problem).

It's like prayer. If patient wants to pray, let them. No harm and might even help with their recovery. But no self-respecting doctor should be advocating prayer.

Who is recommending this stuff and not believing it?

A homeopath pays to train for four years. Appointments are generally at least an hour. Is someone really going to do all that and not believe in it? They could become a counsellor instead if they're in it for the listening therapy. The remedies aren't sold by the homeopath anyway- they're given at the end of the treatment- 2 or 3 pills in a little brown envelope. They do it because they believe in it and because they see it help people.

If someone's after a quick buck there are easier ways to make a living than listening to the ins and outs of someone's life for an hour. And many CAM therapies that pay a lot more.

Take something like homeopathic secretin. Has been introduced to the autism community as something that might help (the idea being that it avoids having to give actual secretin- which some people have done with some good results- but needs to be done under GA). Now you could say that's someone out to make a quick buck from desperate parents - especially as it's not really being prescribed in the way a homeopath would do so. However it's £5 for a bottle that will last ages. Vitamins aimed at the autism community can cost £100, therapies can cost thousands. And the people that are selling the secretin are collecting some data. Now my guess is that if someone spends 5 quid and finds it doesn't make any difference they're not going to buy it again. If it helps they will. And it's not the sort of thing that a homeopath would prescribe anyway. It's been produced by a company that was approached and asked to produce it, and is available cheaply for parents to try if they want to and the company is collecting some data to see how kids are responding. Not sure what's unethical about that. Especially if you're saying it can't do any harm.

The ethical question, obviously, is how a doctor (a real one, not the 'trained homeopath', whatever that means) can bring himself to recommend a sugar pill to a patient with a real suffering.

It's different when doctor might suspect the problem is a psychosomatic and decides to try a placebo.