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Childbirth

Share experiences and get support around labour, birth and recovery.

Epidural questions - Why the stigma attached

331 replies

horseshoe · 21/04/2008 16:37

I had one with DD1, G&A with DD2, desperately trying for a home birth for DC3.

I have said to the MW that if I end up going to hospital I am just gonna ask for epidural if I feel I want one to which she replied "Oh you dont want one of those".

With DD1 I did have vontouse delivery but I had epi after 18 hours of labour when I was 8cm dialated and before they realised that baby was back to back and getting stuck in birth canal.

Everyone I speak to especially "angellic "i've had 3 natural no drugs birth sis" appears to look down their noses at this decision.

So can anyone tell me why they are so wrong and what is the best time to have one - nearer birth or early labour. I seem to remeber that they wait until at least 4cm dialated.

OP posts:
sabire · 25/04/2008 18:26

"WRONG. Not in my experience, also not the experience of friends of mine who had epidurals. In fact, I think it's a bizarre statement"

Here we go - I knew I'd seen it somewhere.

mrw.interscience.wiley.com/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD004457/frame.html

Th is is the plain language summary of the study:

Discontinuation of epidural analgesia late in labour for reducing the adverse delivery outcomes associated with epidural analgesia
Not enough evidence to suggest that stopping an epidural late in labour lowers the risk of instrumental delivery or other unwanted outcomes.

Epidurals are used for pain relief in labour, but they increase the risk of instrumental delivery (vacuum/forceps). Stopping epidurals early aims to allow women to feel the pushing urge and so reduce the chance of having an instrumental birth and possible problems associated with such a birth. There is not enough evidence from the five included trials, involving 462 participants, to show whether stopping an epidural really does lower the risk of instrumental delivery or of any other unwanted outcome. The results show that women whose epidural is stopped report more pain than women whose epidural is continued until the birth of the baby. More research is needed.

I find it bizarre that you think my comments are bizarre! Doesn't it make sense that if you let an epidural block wear off during labour you're going to experience a lot of pain because you have reduced endorphin levels (surely basic physiology: you produce endorphins in response to the pain of labour. The levels of endorphins in the body build up throughout labour - hence the intense 'natural high' that many women experience after an unmedicated birth. If you have no pain because of an epidural you have reduced levels of endorphins and therefore would experience more pain when the epidural is allowed to wear off in second stage).

On a personal note my SIL's epidural was discontinued in second stage to enable her to push. She was literally screaming - panicking because she was in so much pain. It was a very distressing experience for her. And she still ended up with an instrumental birth.

PictureThis · 25/04/2008 18:49

A well managed epidural should not be discontinued in second stage. Should the woman not experience any sensation to push then it should be reduced so that the woman experiences sensation but not pain. Otherwise there is not a lot of point in having it!

krang · 25/04/2008 20:25

You know, it's funny, but for some reason even after the needle had gone in, I was saying over and over again: "I'm sorry, I couldn't stand it. I'm sorry. Did I do the right thing? Did I do the right thing?"

Over and over again after the birth I beat myself up about having the epidural, even though the pain was so bad.

I still wonder why I felt that, why I'd almost imposed my own stigma on having one.

jaynz · 25/04/2008 20:39

Not a personal dig at all, but this statement reflects perfectly the impact that medicalisation of birth has had on society. Before midwives were burned and doctors put on god-pedestals (I have nothing against docs btw) we never questioned our ability to give birth.

But now we regard it as a "dangerous activity" rather than a natural, normal, incredible process that our bodies are specifically designed for, where we "need all the help we can get" because our belief that it's as normal as our hearts beating or our lungs working is gone.

It's really, really sad and I think some of the stigma with epi's comes from the process of women taking control back of their bodies from the medical system. 'If you have an epi you're depending on the patriachal rule of the doctor to manage your birth rather than keeping that control at home with you' - that kind of thing. There is a developing stigma regarding having your baby at the hosp rather than at a birthing unit or at home for the same reason. Not that I necessarily agree with it, but I think that's how it came about.

But I do think women should be able to crow about their drug-free births (without implication for those who choose otherwise) because discussion is how we change views, and it can be inspiring for women who are concerned about their own ability to cope.

PS again, not a personal dig at CoteDAzur, it's just a good example.

expatinscotland · 25/04/2008 20:48

Oh, I'll happily crow to anyone about how painful and distressful I found my drug-free birth and how that pain and the memories of it scarred me.

Kathyis6incheshigh · 25/04/2008 20:51

"Before midwives were burned and doctors put on god-pedestals (I have nothing against docs btw) we never questioned our ability to give birth. "

Bit of a myth, that. The anxiety earlier cultures have had about childbirth is pretty evident if you look at the religious rituals surrounding birth, not to mention literature and mythology.... eg thanksgivings to Juno Lucina in Rome for deliverance from the hazards of childbirth, to give just one example.

jaynz · 25/04/2008 21:06

Expat that is absolutely your right, it's sad that it was like that for you because it's supposed to be a good experience not a bad one. But I was kind of referring to when we talk to others who are concerned about their own ability and our opinions become influential. Like for yourself maybe talking about how epi's work for you rather than the awful exprience without.

Kathy I'm only referring to the medicalisation relatively recently in the last couple of hundred years, in respect to epi's etc. I think that religion etc has a very different type of impact on our thoughts about birth then and now, and I'm sure that their fears were as real as ours are, just based on different things

expatinscotland · 25/04/2008 21:09

'But I was kind of referring to when we talk to others who are concerned about their own ability and our opinions become influential. Like for yourself maybe talking about how epi's work for you rather than the awful exprience without.'

Well, people going on about how medicalised they are and how they usually lead to instrumental deliveries is just as influential, jay, as my relating my experience about how I felt about giving birth without one.

So it was a negative experience.

It has just as much validity as anyone else's.

She asked the question on an open forum.

It's not for anyone to dictate to me how to tone my posts.

jaynz · 25/04/2008 21:16

Sabire there are a lot of hosps here where the epi is completely stopped at fully to 'enble the women to feel where to push'. It's not usually the midwives decision but something that come from the obs and aneth's IME.

Every time I've seen it I've been horrified. It's cruel and awful and never seems to to have any benefits They don't just turn it down they turn it off. And we don't do mobile ones here either

jaynz · 25/04/2008 21:21

expat really sorry to offend, didn't mean it to be taken that way at all. And by no means do I think your experience/opinions have less validity than anyone elses.

Again, apologise

expatinscotland · 25/04/2008 21:22

My hospital does mobile ones.

My sister had one for VBAC in the US.

Thought it was the bee's knees.

ButterflyMcQueen · 25/04/2008 21:25

contentiouscat that wooshing noise..........

it is sooo vile - the thought of it makes me feel sick with fear!

Kathyis6incheshigh · 25/04/2008 21:27

I don't think any midwives have been burned in the last couple of hundred years....

I'm not just being picky - I do think it is important not to create a mythical golden age wrt childbirth and hence we need to be just as precise and evidence-based when we talk about history as when we talk about the medical research and modern women's experience.

CoteDAzur · 25/04/2008 21:35

jaynz - My comment had nothing to do with "medicalisation of birth" and its "impact on society". And you are sadly mistaken in your romantic idealisation of earlier days when "we never questioned our ability to give birth".

As I said before, 'natural' rate of death is around 1.5% for childbirth. That is, if nothing is done to prevent it, 15 out of every 1,000 women will die during childbirth. That makes it a dangerous process in my book, regardless of "medicalisation" and its "impact on society".

expatinscotland · 25/04/2008 21:36

and, in many areas of the world where skilled medical help is not available today, the maternal death rate is shocking.

stuffitllama · 25/04/2008 22:50

Jaynz you've made a really good point re control, I agree with you.

But I totally disagree with you about the crowing! One shouldn't crow about anything to do with parenting.

Anyway I do agree about medicalisation often equating with control.

mom2latinoboys · 26/04/2008 01:09

krang--My sil had what you happened to you she had about 24 hours of labor followed by 12 hours of pushing. They let the epidural wear off and after a few hours of pushing they put it back in. She finally had a C-section. She was with midwives and as she was laboring at night they didn't want to call the doctor until the morning.

sabire · 26/04/2008 08:27

I have very mixed feelings about epidurals. I'm glad we have the option - some labours are so difficult it's good to know that there's an 'escape door' there.

BUT - I worry about epidurals becoming routine for labour, particularly for first time mums, like they have done in some countries. At the moment the majority of women in the UK feel they can cope with the pain of labour without an epidural, and the majority who don't have an epidural are happy with their decision. But what if you knew as a pregnant first time mum, that almost everyone has an epidural - how would that impact on your confidence about your ability to cope with pain? And how would it impact on midwives - their training (so many already have a poor understanding of physiological birth because they see so little of it) and their ability to support the small minority of women who would chose not to have epidurals?

And here in the UK I worry about the impact it would have on the delivery of maternity services - this thread has already thrown up the issue of care in labour - how the only way to ensure you get continuous one to one care in labour is to opt for an epidural, otherwise so much of the time you're lef with it cope on your own. Imagine how, say, a 20% increase in the use of epidurals would impact on the care of those women who choose not to have one.

I can see us slipping into a situation where normal birth without an epidural starts to seem like a weird, primitive thing that only hippies do. It'll be like what's happened with breastfeeding. Years ago almost everyone did it and the vast majority coped fine. Now only a small minority of babies are breastfed for more than a few weeks, women have loads of anxiety about it and worry about whether they'll be able to cope with even unproblematic,normal breastfeeding, and health care professionals and others within the community have lost their knowledge and their ability to help mums overcome problems.

Re: childbirth in the past (and in developing countries today)... one way I used to help myself overcome my own anxieties about childbirth was to imagine myself in the shoes of say, a poor Somalian mother facing the birth of her first baby, while living in a remote village with no access to medical help.

I think about how differently she'd feel about childbirth if someone could have waved a wand and provided her with the sort of antenatal care that I had in my pregnancies, and if she could be reassured that her chance of suffering serious injury or death during birth was as small as mine here in the UK (ie, very, very, very tiny), if she knew that she'd have a fully trained midwife (or maybe two) to attend to her during her labour, and access to obstetric help if she needed it, plus special care for her baby if it was ill at birth.

Doing this always helped put my own fears about birth in perspective...... We are so, so lucky not to have to fear childbirth in the way these women do, or the way women did in the days before anaesthetics and c-sections.

Rosella · 26/04/2008 09:21

The notion of the "good old days" with childbirth being an empowering, lovely female experience with granny by the open fire and aunties rallying round for the big moment has always irritated me.
This was not the case before the medicalisation of birth. Childbirth was feared, literate women used to write farewell letters to their existing children before going into labour.

berolina · 26/04/2008 09:32

I am with Kathy here (as so often ).

On the one hand I do believe birth can be over-medicalised and it is vital to give women the confidence and information they need to have as intervention-free, 'self-led' births as possible and desired. OTOH, the flipside of talking about women's 'natural ability to give life' risks being very painful and disillusioning to those women who really do find that they need assistance - despite very woman-centred conditions.

With ds1, when things had stalled yet again, he was going into distress and I was screaming for a CS (not because I wanted one, but because I was so bloody terrified), I had the most amazing MW who said 'come on, hang in there, I'm with you and I want you to have him vaginally, the way you wanted'. She focused and - despite all the interventions I'd already had and was to have - empowered me. I felt a real part of ds1's birth despite epidural and ventouse. That is what we need. Care that resonds to the woman at every step of the way.

PictureThis · 26/04/2008 09:53

Sabire, I have read you post with great interest and see where you are coming from. However, I am a midwife and I do take issue with your generalised sweeping statement that
..'so many have a poor understanding of physiological birth because they see so little of it..' I and my colleagues have a very good understanding of birth and its physiological process. Just because we may care for some women with epidurals it does not make us obstetric nurses. Having analgesia makes does not make it any less of a physiological process. I consider my role to be someone who is there to support and guide a woman through the birthing process; to provide and facilitate her choices whilst maintaining the safety of her wellbeing and that of her child.

sabire · 26/04/2008 10:21

"Just because we may care for some women with epidurals it does not make us obstetric nurses. Having analgesia makes does not make it any less of a physiological process. I consider my role to be someone who is there to support and guide a woman through the birthing process; to provide and facilitate her choices whilst maintaining the safety of her wellbeing and that of her child."

PictureThis - yes it was a sweeping generalisation....

But - it's something I have heard OTHER midwives say, and it's also a belief I've arrived at since becoming a user representative at my local hospital - I have spent a lot of time over the last couple of years listening to women's birth stories and frankly what I hear is shocking.

YOU might not feel that you are working like an 'obstetric nurse' but my impression is that that's the way many other midwives DO work - behind closed doors on the labour ward where they're not being observed by their colleagues. Over 85% of women at this hospital give birth sitting on their bums, lying flat on their backs, or with their legs in stirrups. Cared for by midwives who, according to you all have a good understanding of physiological birth. How do these two things marry? I get told about women being left alone for long periods of time during established labour, even during second stage, of midwives who seem reluctant to put their hands on the mothers they're caring for. The women I talk to often DON'T feel cared for in the way they feel they ought to be. And you as a midwife aren't going to know they feel that way because they DON'T tell you. You only hear praise from the women who feel they have good care, or complaints and abuse when things have gone obviously wrong. You don't get detailed feedback from women who are simply sad about the sort of care they've had - partly because they probably recognise that most midwives are well-intentioned and are doing the best they can, and partly because it's hard for women to put these feelings into words. Also - I think most women are not entirely sure what actually constitutes good woman centred care anyway - they take what they're given.

Almost none of the women I talk to make formal complaints by the way - they just want to put it all behind them and move on. The midwives I talk to at the hospital are lovely and are committed to giving good care to the women who come to them, but that doesn't stop many women having truly demoralising experiences when they go there to give birth.

"Having analgesia makes does not make it any less of a physiological process" - I'm sorry - I can't agree with this. Part of the physiological process of birth is the pattern of hormone release during normal labour. Epidural anaesthesia profoundly disrupts this - hence the need for augmentation. Epidural also profoundly disrupts normal maternal behaviours in labour. How can this be seen as 'normal' except in social terms?

And what about the fact that 95% of women in some hospitals are having managed third stages? I have had women come to me who requested a physiological third stage who've been cared for by midwives - not newly qualified, note, who told them they'd never cared for someone having a physiological third stage before!

alfiesbabe · 26/04/2008 10:48

sabire - you have written some really interesting and thoughtful posts - you talk a lot of sense. One point I totally agree with is that in this country we have become so far removed from what childbirth should be like, that we then tend to use epidural as a response to a negative situation - the general feeling I get from mums who have them is 'I couldnt cope any more so I had an epidural'.
Having read the posts on this thread, my belief is still that except for exceptional circumstances, birth is a natural function, and women have the greatest chance of a positive experience where they are well supported and empowered to believe in their body. It seems a lot of women don't get this during labour, which is appalling, though I think there's an element of it being a vicious circle. If women assume that they can't cope with labour and that they are going to need all sorts of interventions, then they are turning it into a medicalised experience, which inevitably means more doctor and less midwife involvement, and you go down the whole cascade of intervention route. Let me give an example. When I had dc1, I booked into my local midwife led unit a couple of miles along the road. The care and support I had could not be faulted. I knew the small team of midwives through my antenatal care, so I knew that whoever was on duty when I happened to give birth would be a familiar face. I was allowed to labour at my own pace, there was no coming and going, leaving me alone (unless I wanted to be), no unnecessary examinations or interfering. Yet out of my NCT class of around 8 women, only 2 of us booked into the unit - the others chose to go to a large hospital 25 miles away. Their main reason was that they thought they would need an epidural. Without exception, all these women subsequently felt that they hadnt had a great birth experience - the hospital was big, impersonal, understaffed, not particularly clean, and they all felt emotionally and physically bruised and battered after what was clearly a very un natural experience. My birth was very painful, I won;t deny that, but it was a positive birth and I felt great about how it went, the care I received, and the fact that I had a natural birth. I know that large hospitals don't have to be understaffed or dirty - in an ideal world, big hospitals would offer the quality of care that I expereinced. But I still believe that once you go down the route of a medicalised birth, it is fundamentally a different experience. Labouring and giving birth while totally numbed up, unable to feel your body, is not a natural experience. As for the idea of allowing an epidural to wear off for the second stage - well as far as I can, thats the worst of all worlds - people I know who have had this done (which is clearly for medical reasons, to try to avoid the trauma of instrumental delivery) have all said it was horrendous. Without experiencing the build up of pain, how can you cope with being thrown in at the deep end?! Ultimately of course, there will always be some women who genuinely aren't bothered about wanting to experience the feeling of natural birth. And if you weigh up the risks, know your facts and still decide that you want the epidural route, then fine, go for it, but it needs to be a fully informed choice.

Anagram · 26/04/2008 10:48

Sabire,

You seem to have a blind spot about epis and an axe to grind that has nothing to do with what the op needed help with.

alfiesbabe · 26/04/2008 10:48

sabire - you have written some really interesting and thoughtful posts - you talk a lot of sense. One point I totally agree with is that in this country we have become so far removed from what childbirth should be like, that we then tend to use epidural as a response to a negative situation - the general feeling I get from mums who have them is 'I couldnt cope any more so I had an epidural'.
Having read the posts on this thread, my belief is still that except for exceptional circumstances, birth is a natural function, and women have the greatest chance of a positive experience where they are well supported and empowered to believe in their body. It seems a lot of women don't get this during labour, which is appalling, though I think there's an element of it being a vicious circle. If women assume that they can't cope with labour and that they are going to need all sorts of interventions, then they are turning it into a medicalised experience, which inevitably means more doctor and less midwife involvement, and you go down the whole cascade of intervention route. Let me give an example. When I had dc1, I booked into my local midwife led unit a couple of miles along the road. The care and support I had could not be faulted. I knew the small team of midwives through my antenatal care, so I knew that whoever was on duty when I happened to give birth would be a familiar face. I was allowed to labour at my own pace, there was no coming and going, leaving me alone (unless I wanted to be), no unnecessary examinations or interfering. Yet out of my NCT class of around 8 women, only 2 of us booked into the unit - the others chose to go to a large hospital 25 miles away. Their main reason was that they thought they would need an epidural. Without exception, all these women subsequently felt that they hadnt had a great birth experience - the hospital was big, impersonal, understaffed, not particularly clean, and they all felt emotionally and physically bruised and battered after what was clearly a very un natural experience. My birth was very painful, I won;t deny that, but it was a positive birth and I felt great about how it went, the care I received, and the fact that I had a natural birth. I know that large hospitals don't have to be understaffed or dirty - in an ideal world, big hospitals would offer the quality of care that I expereinced. But I still believe that once you go down the route of a medicalised birth, it is fundamentally a different experience. Labouring and giving birth while totally numbed up, unable to feel your body, is not a natural experience. As for the idea of allowing an epidural to wear off for the second stage - well as far as I can, thats the worst of all worlds - people I know who have had this done (which is clearly for medical reasons, to try to avoid the trauma of instrumental delivery) have all said it was horrendous. Without experiencing the build up of pain, how can you cope with being thrown in at the deep end?! Ultimately of course, there will always be some women who genuinely aren't bothered about wanting to experience the feeling of natural birth. And if you weigh up the risks, know your facts and still decide that you want the epidural route, then fine, go for it, but it needs to be a fully informed choice.