Going around in circles about next labour - LONG

[BabiesEverywhere]

I DON?T EXPECT ANYONE TO READ THIS STUPIDLY LONG POST, I JUST NEED TO GET THIS DOWN ON PAPER AND SO I CAN PROCESS IT AND MOVE FORWARD.

I have just received a card detailing my blood issues Rhesus Positive with E antibodies. I need to carry during my pregnancy and for some reason this has really pushed me over the edge and I can?t stop crying.

I knew things would not be straight forward this time because of how my daughter entered the world.

Last time I was forced into hospital, as my anti-homebirth community midwife refused to come out to me and when the hospital tested me they thought I was Strep B and I had to be admitted. My labour stopped in the hospital as I was so scared. Started to induce me, I was tied to a bed with continuous monitoring.

I begged them to take it off and they refused (I now know we should of told them to fuck off ) They told me they thought I would be endangering my baby if I didn't lie still on my back with drip etc Because I couldn't move even an inch onto my side the pain was unbearable, leading to the 'classic waterfall inventions', so I ended up with drugs and a spinal thing. I pushed for 3 hours on the midwifes instructions.

Baby got distressed. So after 19/20 hours in labour in hospital (after a slow labour at home for a couple of days) they take me into surgery. I am very frightened of hospital at the best of times and being operated on whilst being awake and feeling it is my worst nightmare. They kept saying can I feel this cold thing on my leg, I said yes but they tell me I can't feel it. Why bloody ask me if you are going to ignore the answer?

I can still feel everything and they are talking about cutting me open, I am so terrified, my husband was outside the surgery room, I can hardly catch my breath. Eventually they let DH in and they say they will try forceps first and manage to rip my baby out that way. I touch her on her back for one brief second and they take her away, I feel very cold and start shaking

I don't remember the next few hours/days. Apparently I lost several pints of blood and had ripped one end to the other, had a blood transfusion and transferred to a HDU ward. All I remember is drifting in and out of consciousness, hearing beeping of machines and alarms going off and wires everywhere and a horrible mask on my face. I could hear my baby but I couldn?t reach her and the pain was terrible.

I have photos DH took of my DD and me in that ward, I can't look at them. I am 'not there' and have no memory of that time. Supposedly the first precious moments with my baby, I never gave birth, she was just ripped out of me.

I never had PND and bonded well with my DD and established breastfeeding (despite a midwife saying that mothers like me who have bad experiences, don't breastfeed). I rarely talk about what happened in hospital in real life, I avoid references to 'giving birth' and tend to withdraw when other mother talk about their labours. I have flashbacks and nightmares about what happened, though they had lessened over the last 17 months. At the start I would be crying daily and now I go weeks without it popping into my mind uninvited.
I eventually months later, did talk to the hospital about what happened and they had someone come out and go though my medical records with me, to fill in some of my blank memories.

When DD was 6 months old I thought I was accidentally pregnant and I was terrified and I wrote this entry in my blog at the time shows my state of mind at the time.
Blog Page

I thought I had made my peace with accepting that I would have to risk enduring the same experience for a second child if I went to hospital and I expected to book a private midwife so I could try to have a home birth otherwise. So with that in mind we TTC and got pregnant again and apart from a bit of bleeding I have had a good 12 weeks and no worries.

Yesterday we went for a scan and despite the bleeding we saw a healthy very active baby on the screen and I was so happy I cried

But when speaking to the midwife after the scan, she mentioned the problems in my blood. I am Rhesus Positive but have Anti-D and Anti-E antibodies in my blood, properly due to my blood transfusion. They will properly cause no problems but might cross and attack the baby if baby is a certain blood type. So I need blood tests every 4 weeks to check the antibody levels in my blood and according to the unexpected letter this morning I should carry this card whilst being pregnant.

The consultant said the heavy bleeding I had last time meant I shouldn't have a home birth, very reluctant about water birth, monitoring etc. The midwife agreed with me that being in hospital and being starved, lying on my back and the long labour and pushing for 3 hours and the cut, made me bleed and I would be at no more likely to bleed than anyone else if I have a normal labour and were more willing to comprise about water birth and monitoring etc. The midwife even said they would consider a home birth if I tested Strep B negative at 37 weeks and had no other problems but what is the chance of that happening.

However the last hospital said they would follow a birth plan and not tie me to a bed and they lied. Can I trust these people even if they are in a different hospital ? Even if they intended to follow an agreed plan, I can see everything changing if anything I do is not 'textbook' and no one has a textbook labour.

I still want a private midwife but we don't have enough money in our savings and our budget is so tight, I doubt we can save up the remainder needed in time. Also what if I went with a private midwife and ended up in hospital away. What a waste of money? Though for the chance of a normal labour I would spend every penny we had, we just don't have enough pennies. So although I pencilled in an independent midwife it looks like I will have to cancel her services.

The midwife did suggest an elective C-section under a spinal as a good alternative. I started crying, I couldn't find the words to explain how bad I felt. Luckily my DH realised I couldn't speak and he explained that was my ultimate nightmare and he was sure I was willing to do anything to avoid that particular scenario.

I am cross that because I was forced into hospital last time, it has caused many issues for this pregnancy. As the community midwife said ironically last time I was a perfect candidate for a home birth but now I am too much of a risk.

The midwife seems to be worried that I will crack up emotionally nearer the labour date and insisted I take details for a counsellor. I don't need a counsellor, talking will not make a difference to the past, I have tried it and it makes me will worse and weak. I just want to move forward and put practical things in place so maybe I will be able to give birth this time. I need to figure what I should do for the best.

I want to do the right thing but I don't know what that is. I just want to stay as far away from hospital as possible. But I don't want to bleed to death at home and despite being told it shouldn't be a problem, the antibodies in my blood and all the additional blood tests are scaring me.

I am just spinning around in circles

Babieseverywhere - you can have a general and book it in advance. If you think it might help you - why don't you talk to the consultant and ask to provisionally book in a section and a general so you have a date to work to, then, once the pressure is off, have a think about whether it's what you want.

You will have to stay in at least three days after a section under a general though.

With my blood and potential strep B problems I will be hospital for at least a week anyway, though I will be asking to leave as soon as possible.

A section under a general does scare me a hell of a lot, but not as much as a section whilst being awake.

I just feel rail roaded and the only way I can have any input into this situation is to activally choose the second worst option myself. Then I can concentrate on accepting what muct happen over the next 6 months.

I am concerned about being in hospital and the complications which always follow. Every hospital admission (including when I was a child) I ALWAYS have the complications, even thought the consultants say it will never happen it does. My wounds always end up infected (I never touch anything and do everything the hospital requires) but I am that person who things go wrong for.

My recent gall bladder, my 'straight forward you'll be home in a day' key hole operation was transfered to an open and got infected. I woke up screaming in the post-op room and they wouldn't give me any additional pain relief because I was breastfeeding. So I screamed for 20 minutes until the pain relief kicked in. All the theatre staff just watched me in horror from the edges of the room. Only one nurse came to my side and spoke to me. I begged her to get something to help me but she didn't/couldn't

So yet again I see hospital as a place where I am ripped up and ignored in pain. In fact as I'm typying this post, it is no fucking wonder I am so scared of hospital is it ?

I was in a morphine haze for several days in hospital and in so much pain when I was sent home with a wound infection. It took the HV an hour to clean my infected wound daily. Every day I moved it oosed. I had a fever and had periods where I would have uncontrollable shaking for hours. I couldn't lift anything for weeks, including my dearest child.

I just don't have good hospital experiences. If anything can go wrong it has. It is a bit of a standing joke in my family.

SO due to my previous hospital experiences. I guess I am at high risk of an infected C-section and I worry that the stitches will come out, I hear that can happen rarely but I reckon it will be me.

Babieseverywhere - Which hospital are you booking into?

There is nothing I can say to you which has not been said already, but I am really about the way you feel.

You sound very much like you need counselling to help you work through your birth trauma, and the positive thing is that you actually did have a vaginal birth, so you are in a great position to have a normal, intervention free birth. Just because you had forceps last time is absolutely no guarantee that you will need the same again, and your chances of needing a c/s are very small, statistically about 5%, but you need to relax and fear is the greatest enemy of a normal birth.

You need to explain to your DP that a doula is not going to make decisions for your labour, but is only going to be an extra support, to keep the hospital staff honest, if you like. She cant alter the course of your labour but she can offer another perspective on it and balance the views of the medics, although in our hospital you would still be considered low risk and unlikely to see a doctor (except as a courtesy hello on their rounds) unless things started to go wrong, and there is nothing in your OP to think that they will.

I always say to my patients that it is their labour, their bodies and their experience, and they have to live with their decisions. If there is something they are not happy with, and might regret in the future, then dont do it. You can always say NO, lets wait a bit and if baby is not distressed, there is no rush to get you through labour.

Keep talking on mumsnet, its a great support, and please take up hertsnessex's generous offer, I really think you need that so much.

I wish I could help you more....

Sorry x-posts, I see you are a long way from where I am, unfortunately........

is there any benefit to you printing off this posting and giving it to your midwife? You see I think sometimes when they see things in black and white and that you have spent time writing it down they will realise that you are not just ranting these are real emotions and fears you have.

Biologicaly I have no idea how things could pan out this time but I do think you should try to talk things through with the birth trauma people.

Good luck!

The consultant is getting my medical records from the last hospital and I am to see him again in two months to agree a birth plan.

The midwife/s I saw. Normal booking lady and a more senior lady, where both pleasant friendly ladies who were trying to see how they could help me feel better. They talked about transferring me to this head midwife woman who sorts out complicated cases.

But the consultant overruled them and he said no home birth, no water birth, would have to be continous montioning, drip etc...which is not what I want. Again just like the last hospital they all seem nice people but that doesn't change things for me.

SO it is not worth printing/saying anything further to the midwifes , as I am trapped under the consultant and as I am forced into that ward, it will be medical invention all the way, just like last time.

If I tried to go to hospital, I will be yet again on my back in a bed in too much pain too labour. I found at home rocking on a birth ball in an upright position was the only bearable position and lying down was unbearable...in hospital it is just worse all around.

The other thing that occured to me last night, is maybe I could just accidently stay home too long. Keep my labour as quiet as possible for as long as possible. I know my DH will not agree but what he doesn't know he can't change.

The consultant cant actually overrule them as such, all he can do is suggest what he thinks would be best, it is not his body and not his pregnancy, he cannot tell you what to do, just advise, please remember that.

I understand what you mean about taking 'too long' to go to hospital etc, I'm planning on doing the same kind of thing, I've agreed I'll go in as soon as I get a twinge but in reality I'm not going til I feel ready and believe I need to.

How much do you know about your complications? Can you maybe request to speak to the head midwife and tell her you're refusing surgery unless baby is compromised or you're very overdue??

If you tell them that this is the way things are going to be they cannot say no. At least then they'll be expecting you, it seems the midwifery team would've been happy to try and help you?? You are going to have to be stubborn and put your foot down.

I'd suggest asking your DH to research PND/PTS, because at the moment going into labour the way you are feeling you will be a prime candidate for either/both of them, your mental health is extremely important, maybe if your DH understands exactly how important he will support you more, maybe not with the Doula/M/W etc but with your refusal of surgery.

Complications wise...most of them stemed from being in hosptial.

I am worried about the blood stuff but I will have a better idea about this nearer the time.

My main worry is the Strep B thing, I will be tested in a private lab at 37 weeks. If that comes back clear, then I could stay at home for a time.

But if it comes back positive I don't know what to do. The antibiotics don't always work and do have bad effects on labour (i.e. another reason to be tied to the bed) and afterwards on the mother and baby (we had very bad thrush, bleeding bottom rash for the baby leading to her crying a lot, made breastfeeding extremely painful all around, have to stay in hosptial and have baby tested every 12 hours for a week)

Some positive Strep B people don't have antibiotics in labour (in fact they are useless in quick labours) and just watch the baby and use oral antibiotics if needed.

If I could of afforded the independant midwife, she had already agreed to give the antibiotics at home if I needed and wanted them. But of course this is not availble on the NHS

I just want to stay home, with my unused water pool a fair distance for any doctors.

I have mailed you babieseverywhere.

Cx

babies - sorry but you are wrong about the IVABs.

If you are +ve, you can have IVABs in labour, and they are very effective at combatting GBS. If you dont have time for 4 hours of cover by the IVABs, (if your labour is less than 4 hours - which in itself would be pretty fantastic IMO) then most hospitals recommend a shot of IM benzylpenicillin for baby, with observations for 24 - 48 hours in hospital. Even the less progressive hospitals will only recommend a blood test and swabs for baby with 12 hourly IVABs for baby until the swab results come back, usually within 4 days.

IVABs should not interfere with labour at all as you have a cannula for the ABs and it will not necessitate being stuck on a bed or extra monitoring. They will give you the IVABs - might take 15 mins - then you are free again.

In fact I did a waterbirth a couple of weeks ago of a woman who was GBS+ve - made no difference to her labour at all.

Also, a lot of women have antibiotics in labour with no thrush or side effects as you describe, I really do think you have been unlucky last time.

Stay positive BabiesEverywhere, remember that you can insist on not being stuck on a bed and monitored etc - your body, your choice.

I am always unlucky. Both the last hospital and this hosptial insist that + means no water birth, no moving in a bed, constant montioring etc

I said what you said about the cannula being no bar to a water birth. FFS I had one in for a week when I was admitted for the gall bladder thing and I had baths and showers, I just screwed a little cap on the open end and a bandage so I didn't knock it out.

But the consultant for this hospital and the midwife at the other said it is policy for no water birth, constant monitoring, permant drip in arm etc.

I have done a lot of reading and I know it shouldn't affect my labour but sadly the hospital doctors I have to deal with just follow the bloody policies and have zero ability to comprise.

They can't force you thoguh B.E., Okay they can refuse to get the pool out, but they can't make you have CFM or stay on a bed, what are they going to do strap you down??

www.aims.org.uk

have excellent information and support re what is 'allowed' in labour

as has been said, your consultant can advise you what to do , but cannot make you do anything

if you want a natural , active water birth, without a venflon , then that is your informed choice to make

Stupidly I am normally the last person not to get my point across. But it was so different in hospital. My husband did say that if we went to hospital this time, he'll take the monitor off himself but as he has already said he will just agree with the doctor, I doubt he will support me.

I don't want to spend my labour fighting everyone but the alternative of an operation is not appealing either.

does your DH understand that the more intervention you have, that if you have to lie down to labour there is more chance of more intervention being needed

e.g instrumental or surgical delivery

I told him about the 'waterfall intervention theory' and that is why I am so worried about the being stuck on a bed thing. Even the midwife agreed that a lot of my 'problems' last time were directly related to how I was treated, something my husband didn't believe.

He thought it was very lucky I was in hosptial because of all these things that went wrong. He didn't understand that the hospital CAUSED the problems

I know how hard it can be to stand up to people who supposedly know best and are going to be responsible for sorting out any problems, I didn't stand up to the cons with my last CS and it has just made everything a million times worse, even with this cons I didnt feel as assertive as I thought I would and ended up breaking down in her office, I was lucky, when she saw how emotionally important it was to me to aim for a trial of delivery she relented (Though my notes have scrawled across them 'Miss VS is wanting a VBAC, although I think the chances of success are slim and it is unlikely to happen we will continue to care for her in the way she wants').

I really think you need to contact the head of midwifery, find out if she is willing to support you in a trial of labour if you refuse surgery, if she is then explain to your DH that you are going to refuse surgery unless the midwives think you need to reassess the situation, would that ease his worries maybe? If he knew you had a professional person on your side so to speak rather than a third person??

I wonder if I can self-refer to the head of midwifery?

I ask, as the senior midwife wanted to refer me to the head of midwifery but the consultant said not to, as he was dealing with me.

My husband is trying his best to be supportive with me but I suspect I am too emotional at the moment to accept it.

yes, you are entitled to speak to her about your care.. and to have a second opinion

the cascade / waterfall of intervention is a really well known phenomenon in hospital birth.. i think it is pretty much widely accepted

Thanks hertsnessex for your email and the attached links, they are very useful, I've sent you a reply

I think I need to talk to the head midwife and gather some information and write down some clear questions/ what I want and go though it with the head midwife and the consultant and see what is flexible.

I am NOT have constant monitoring whatever they say.

babies, i am in merseyside.. am a doula and in the process of setting up a birth choices group and i have lots of useful contacts... are you near me at all?

if you don;t want to say on here you can email me

lulumama 21 @ hotmail. com

Emailed you Lulumama

Despite how depressing this thread reads, it is really helping me and I wish to thank everyone who has contributed so far. You have given me some hope at a time I feel so down and distressed.

I know have some information to read though and another angle to approach (Head midwife)

I need to do a lot of thinking at some point. But more importantly I need to stop thinking about this now and try and just enjoy the fact that our baby is alright so far. I had early bleeding in this pregnancy and was really happy to see him/her kicking on the scan screen.

I keep trying to remind myself that plenty of women who be more than happy to be in my shoes and I am lucky to be carrying a child, even if the worst happens in August.

ok

will reply ASAP

B.E, yes, it's true you are lucky, and you must try and enjoy your pregnancy/be happy baby is well etc, but that does not take away the worry and pain you are going through, too often the method of birth is swept under the carpet as you have 'a healthy baby' 'something to be gateful for' etc.

I really hope you can get some kind of help, get in contac with H/M/W asap and let us know how you get on.