celebrities and cesarean

[Lara77]

Most of the websites on the internet and almost everybody I speak to say cesarean is not a good thing unless it is necessary. So why most of the celebrities and rich people prefer cesarean. Are all of them breach c-sections like VB

ernest, you aren't a first time mother with no idea of what either a)birth is like or b)what a cs is like.
You have had both forms of delivery and have experiences to weigh up what is best for you.

Do you honestly think that the people I know who have said they want a CS because they think it is easier than pushing, and don't want to have their fanjo change shape, making the decisions without any type of real information should be told, 'sure go ahead, have major surgery'????

What? Nobody in the real world asks for a c-section because it will be easier than pushing. It's not easier, but given the current state of the NHS, it is safer for mother and for baby.

I don't know of a single baby who has has suffered as a result of a planned c-section. I know several who have been damaged(i.e. cerebral palsy) and even dies as a result of a vaginal birth.

There have been several threads on here over the years in the berevement section. I'm sure we can all think of at least one. There is nothing wrong with a medicalised birth. And there is plenty wrong with a dead baby.

Gloria, they do ask for it because of those reasons, I know peopel that have got pregnant and then when I have asked if they have any ideas regarding the birth they have told me they are having a cs for those reasons!!
TBH, If I hadn't heard it for myself I probably wouldn't beleiv eit either, but it is true.

And that is BEFORE they have spoken to their midwife who ahs then informed them cs's are major surgery and unless you go private you dont just get it because you want it.

i frankly do not care whether these air-head/vapid-hedonistic-wtf-are-they-famous-for-inconsequential-tits sneeze their babies out or have an elective C-Section! So what who cares? i dont. the rest of their lives are predominately stupid so no suprises there then

Well, I would advise talking to the consultant about sections and the midwife if you want a fluffy natural birth. There is a very clear divide between consultants and midwives on their recommended approaches to childbirth.

both times, the bikini wax beforehand was a whole lot more painful than the section.

I'm not trying to be funny, it really was.

especially that bit along the top. Ooyah.

well, now I've read this and the thread that started it, and the only thing I have to say, as a first-timer-no-nothing, is that this level of argument has done nothing to allay my fears of either a vaginal birth or a c/s.

i wonder if anyone remembers that a lot of us come on here for advice and reassurance and hearing all these judgements being bandied around along with the terrible birth stories/consequences of vaginal birth/csection really doesn't help.

mumsnet has at times felt like a really major support to me, now you lot have just made me want to cry.

and yes thats pathetic, but my first baby is due in just over a month and I'm scared shitless.

will post this on the other thread too, just to be fair

oh chunkypudding, please dont take this to heart. yes, childbirth is scary and big and wonderful. but it doesnt matter how that baby comes out. when you look at your child then the method of delivery becomes irrelevant. i promise.

CP - the mode of arrival, really is not the big deal, a live birth and lots of quality mum-baby time is the biggie. babies arrive lots of ways - some too plan , some not. it is a process but the end result of you and baby is what really matters. don't worry be fine

chunkypudding, why don't you speak to one of the doulas on here such as lulumama? I'm sure she has some advice to allay your fears. Try to think positive and focus on the end product, you and your lovely new baby. Good luck!

Chunkypudding, how much have you read up on childbirth? It can, and should be, the most amazing experience! It's hard, very hard, for most of us but it's not always the most awful experience.

Have you read the likes of Ina May Gaskin's Guide to Childbirth? Have a look at this American site, it's lovely! Also how your own hormones work

Good birth support, positive attitude, flexible birth preferences will all make a difference. You have nothing to fear except fear itself.

chunky, I posted a reply to you on the other thread.

I was nearly born by C-section. My mum went to the hospital on 4th Sep and found out I was breech. She is 5ft 2. They told her to come back for a section on the 5th, she said can I not come in on the 6th as it is my birthday on the 5th. Hospital agreed. Mum went into slow labour on the way home, she thought she was just a bit poorly. In fact a police man saw her doubled over on the road near the hospital and offered her a lift home. Her waters broke the following morning properly, she was taken to the hospital and too far along to have a section. I was born naturally, feet first, weighing 10lbs 3oz.

When I was pg, I found out DD was breech. I could either have a section, or have DD turned, or have a natural delivery.

Mum told me NOT to consider a breech, she said she found it terrible with me even though I was her 2nd.

I opted for turning, but I started suffering from high blood pressure and protein in urine.

In the end, due to these issues and feeling stressed, and at the consultants influence, I had a section.

Weak excuse?

Without wishing to offend/piss anyone off etc I think the financial cost is a factor that can't be ignored. A c-section costs a lot more than a VB. And a VB with epidural costs more than a VB on gas and air. Those are indisputable facts. Personally I feel that a c-section should be given only when medically necessary (and I speak as someone who had DC2 as c-section and DC3 as VBAC.) But then I guess 'medical necessity' can be open to interpretation - what one doctor might deem necessary, another doctor might disagree with. Not an easy one to make a judgement call on.

Exactly, inthegutter: What is medically necessary. A previous section? A phhobia? Fear of torn and broken parts you didn't previously know you had?

I'm all for talking about the cost of running the NHS, but not if we are just going to focus on caesareans. Maybe we should start charging a tenner to see the GP? It might reduce unnecessary visits to the GP. Maybe we should stop offering IVF to anyone on the NHS because of course that is not actually medically necessary. Maybe we should stop offering hip replacements to the elderly. Maybe we should stop offering medical treatment to people who aren't legally resident in the UK?

There are lots of places to cut costs. So, if you want to sweep across the board go for it. But don't cherry pick maternity services.

so is a big factor cost then? In which case, it's less to do with women's individual choice/ preference, and more to do with the current NHS system in the UK.

In Switzerland it's basically all done on private health insurance, and you get what you pay for. You visit the doctor, you get an itemised bill, including time, use of resources (blood tests), medicine etc. It's a bit of an eye opener to see really how much things cost. When you never have to dip your hand in your pocket you get the feeling that it's free.

And here, if you want a c-section, you can have one. But you pay for it. If you need a c-section, the insurance company pays for it.

So of course, the argument would be that the poorer people are penalised under this system, but it's not too far away from UK, where the more well off can pay for a private room/got for private nuchal scans as they're no longer offered in many areas etc etc

By ScottishMummy on Mon 26-Nov-07 18:07:53
CP - the mode of arrival, really is not the big deal, a live birth and lots of quality mum-baby time is the biggie. babies arrive lots of ways - some too plan , some not. it is a process but the end result of you and baby is what really matters. don't worry be fine

sorry to take issue again with this , scottishmummy.. but you seem to be missing a really important point. Mode of delivery is important, it is a big deal, every birth i have debriefed, ever client i have had, every woman who has needed help preparing for birth, every woman who has had birth trauma... for all of them, teh mode of delivery was and is vastly important. we all do have hopes, dreams and fears about the birth.. pretending it does not matter, as long as the baby is ok, dismisses a huge event in a womans' life. virtually every woman who has suffered birth trauma has said something very similar to this:
'no-one would listen to me, they said as long as the baby was ok, what did it matter how he/she got here?' it matters hugely to the mum, and makes her feel very guilty for caring how the baby arrives.

and it is my own personal experience too.

Perhaps it matters so much to these women because they have been fed all kinds of encouragement (even propoganda) on how important their all natural vaginal birth experience is. So it the expectation that leads to disappointment. But, if the NHS sat us all down at ante natal classes and said look here these are the pros and cons of vaginal delivery. These benefits are great, but these risks here are also possible. Oh, and the pain is like nothing you have imagined (so I hear, I wouldn't personally know). ANd then said look here, this is what happens if it goes wrong. These are the risks of casarean, this is a possible scenario. And these are resons you might end up in a section (failure to progress, blood pressure, breech, etc.) And then tell them what the caesarean procedure is like.

Now this in my view would go miles to preventing a lot of post section trauma.

I went to the ante natal classes (well the one that fit round work) and they talked about fluffy natural is beter blah blah blah. It never even occurred to me that I could be headed for section (wish I had thought to plan one!). So, two weeks over due, induced, foetal distress and at 3am a form is shoved in my face, cords are flying, the razor comes out and I am the theatre is about 3 minutes flat with a team of doctors, midwives, etc. around me. (Where did these people come from in such a hurry???). The consultan (who looks to me at this point barely old enough to drive to work) gives the epidural one more minute to take effect or they are kniowcking me out. Minute went by, belly not numb, so out I went.

Woke up with lovely baby in DH's arms, who was sitting next to me.

Un huh... now if someone had said, lokk you are two weeks over dues and that could be a sign that you have a baby tarzan and she's all wrapped up in the cord. So if the induction is not successful you will end up in a caesaean and this is what is likely to happen... blah blah blah. Cool, that would all have been a lot less exciting shall we say.

Tell people what birth is really like and let them decide.

Gloria, you keep coming back to 'Fear of torn and broken parts you didn't previously know you had?'
I would assume most women who have a natural birth have that fear, so no, I wouldn't say it was a medical necessity.

Your comment 'Exactly, inthegutter: What is medically necessary. A previous section? A phhobia? Fear of torn and broken parts you didn't previously know you had?' didn't really help either, inthegutter was not saying that CS should be a regular birth choice, but that it is a tricky call for doctors to decide when it is medically necessary.

Also you have mentioned now on both threads about IVF.

IVF is what is needed by the patient to be able to concieve.

Hip replacements are needed to enable people to be mobile.

CSections (when needed) are needed to ensure safe delivery of the baby and the health of the mother.

All three instances are things that most people are able to do without medical intervention, which only becomes necessary when the patient is unable to do it any other way.

I get the feeling you keep bringing up IVF as it is an emotive subject and you think it might help your argument, when in fact it has no place in this discussion.

My point is not that people should stop asking for CSections, but that the medical staff that give CSections should be making sure they are needed rather than just because someone fancies one.

In the case of IVF I doubt very much the doctor would say, 'oh, you don't want to actually have sex and try and conceive the standard way? We'll give you IVF,' of course they don't it's a scary ordeal for those who find it hard to conceive, and even then there is only so many attempts they will be given on the NHS.

Neither do doctors allow you to have a hip replacement unless you need it.

There are so many holes in that post it's difficult to find the substance. Im going to have to tackle it by writing caps in your text. Please don't interpret it as shouting.

Gloria, you keep coming back to 'Fear of torn and broken parts you didn't previously know you had?'
I would assume most women who have a natural birth have that fear, so no, I wouldn't say it was a medical necessity. AND WHAT DOES THE NHS DO WHEN SOMETHING DOES BREAK: NOTHING. SO DO YOU REALLY WANT TO TRUST THEM WHEN YOU ARE PREGNANT AND THEY SAY "OH DON'T WORRY ABOUT THAT" THEN WHEN YOU'VE BEEN INJURED THEY FOB YOU OFF AND TELL YOU IT'S NORMAL.

Your comment 'Exactly, inthegutter: What is medically necessary. A previous section? A phhobia? Fear of torn and broken parts you didn't previously know you had?' didn't really help either, inthegutter was not saying that CS should be a regular birth choice, but that it is a tricky call for doctors to decide when it is medically necessary. YES, I KNOW. I WAS MAKING THE SAME POINT. WHAT ONE DOCTOR SAYS IS A A MEDICAL NEED ANOTHER MAY NOT. SO IF MEDICAL NEED IS THE BASIS FOR WHETHER OR NOT TO HAVE A SECTION IT IS A DIFFUCLUT RULE TO FOLLOW.

Also you have mentioned now on both threads about IVF. YES

IVF is what is needed by the patient to be able to concieve. BUT CONCEIVING IS TECHNICALLY A MEDICAL NECCESITY.

Hip replacements are needed to enable people to be mobile. BUT YOU COULD SIT IN A WHEEL CHAIR.

CSections (when needed) are needed to ensure safe delivery of the baby and the health of the mother.

All three instances are things that most people are able to do without medical intervention, which only becomes necessary when the patient is unable to do it any other way.

I get the feeling you keep bringing up IVF as it is an emotive subject and you think it might help your argument, when in fact it has no place in this discussion. THAT IS AN ACCUSATION WITHOUT SUBSTANCE AND IT IS NOT TRUE. I'M BRINGING IT UP BECAUSE IT IS NOT MEDICALLY NECESSARY.

My point is not that people should stop asking for CSections, but that the medical staff that give CSections should be making sure they are needed rather than just because someone fancies one. BUT THEN HOW WILL WE DEFINE MEDICALLY NECESSARY?

In the case of IVF I doubt very much the doctor would say, 'oh, you don't want to actually have sex and try and conceive the standard way? We'll give you IVF,' of course they don't it's a scary ordeal for those who find it hard to conceive, and even then there is only so many attempts they will be given on the NHS. I'VE ALREADY ADDRESSED THIS POINT.

Neither do doctors allow you to have a hip replacement unless you need it.

ALSO, I AM OF COURSE NOT SERIOUSLY SUGGESTING THAT THE NHS CUT OUT IVF OR HI REPLACEMENTS. I'M JUST POINTING OUT THE FLAWS OF THE MEDICALLY NECESSARY ARGUMENT. THE NHS OFFERS PLENTY OF THINGS THAT AREN'T NECESSARILY MEDICALLY REQUIRED -- BUT RATHER MEDICALLY DESIRED.

'All three instances are things that most people are able to do without medical intervention, which only becomes necessary when the patient is unable to do it any other way.'

So yes it is a medical necessity.

Okay, by that logic, getting the baby out is a medical necesity and therefore the section is medically necessary.

Anyway, I don't why we are harping on about IVF. It was just an example. I didn't intend to really debate IVF. It must very distressing to have to go through IVF. And as I said before I'm not suggesting we should remove it from the list of NHS services.

The baby can come out another way though Gloria, it is when it cannot come out the other way, for whatever reason, that a CS becomes necessary.