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Childbirth

Share experiences and get support around labour, birth and recovery.

Vbac vs cs: can you

265 replies

PollyParanoia · 09/11/2006 11:49

Hello I'm 38 weeks pg and still haven't decided what sort of birth to go for. Change my mind on a daily basis and am getting quite irritated at my own indecisiveness.
Ds born 2 and a half years ago by em cs. I was fully dilated, failed ventouse, a bit of foetal distress, blah blah. Found cs recovery to be surprisingly quick (was cycling into town three weeks later, which looking back was a bit idiotic).
Anyway was all gung ho about a vbac and have very pro-consultant, but then his underling doctor was saying to me "what you really don't want is an em cs at full dilation" (and judging by quick dilation first time round is what I'd end up with if it came to a cs).
Anyway, it seems to me a successful vbac is the "best" I can hope for, followed by a planned cs, followed by an emergency. Oh, and a nasty vbac with loads of tearing is I think for me the worst option given that I've already got my cs scar, why have another somewhere else. What I don't know, in terms of safety, recovery, discomfort, is where these births come on a scale. If an elective is way better than an em cs and not much worse than a vbac, then that's an appealing option. If a vbac is way better, then I should go for it etc, etc.
It's such a blooming difficult decision without the aid of a crystal ball.
Arggh, Pol
ps have another consultant's appt on Monday to make final decision. They are being very patient with me. Oh and dh's work means that being on time or early would give us much better paternity leave. Plus he would much rather I have a planned cs as found the whole first birth terrifying.

OP posts:
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3andnomore · 09/11/2006 14:35

Well, had natural Births with es and ys and then emergency Section with ys....even though I recoevered physically really well form the C-section, I receovered even quicker with my other 2 and felt back to normal (well, sort of ,lol) after a few days of giving Birth!
You might also want to think about if you want more children at all, because then you really want to avoid more C-sections!
How about trial of labour and then, if you feel you can't deal with it, they could always give you a C-section....apparnelty it is better to labour before a C-section...hormones, etc....! Could you ask if that is possible at all...that way you are keeping your options open!
If you go for VBAC, make sure you are not bound down by monitors, etc...because that just never helps...what you want is a mobile active labour, and less likelyhood of intervention then!

Toady · 09/11/2006 14:38

Sod it I will post it

Risks of caesereans

The risks of cesarean section may be divided into immediate or short-term risks, long-term risks or the risks of accumulating cesareans, and risks affecting future pregnancies and births.
Short-term risks can include:
· Pain, debility, and a longer recovery period: In one study, one-quarter of the women reported pain when interviewed two weeks after their cesareans and 15 percent still reported pain at eight weeks (33). More than 15 percent reported difficulties with normal activities such as getting out of bed, walking, bending, lifting and tending the baby at two weeks. One in ten still reported problems at eight weeks.
· Surgical complications: A ten-year review at one hospital reported a 4.5 percent incidence of major complications, that is, severe hemorrhage, need for repeat surgery (generally to investigate bleeding), pelvic infection, blood clots, pneumonia, blood poisoning (septicemia), or clotting dysfunction (a result of severe hemorrhage) (56). Nearly one-third of cesarean mothers experienced minor complications, including fever; hemorrhage; blood-filled swelling (hematoma); urinary tract, wound or uterine infection; blood clots in the legs (phlebitis); paralyzed bowel (ileus); or bladder paralysis. An analysis of women in Washington State, found that women having cesareans were nearly twice as likely to be readmitted to the hospital as women having normal vaginal births (30).
· Surgical injury to bowel, bladder, uterus, or uterine blood vessels: two percent.
· Hemorrhage: Between one and six percent of women needed a transfusion. Hemorrhage may sometimes require a hysterectomy.
· Infection: 8 to 27 percent. Antibiotic resistant infections are starting to be a problem as well (10).
· Paralyzed bowel: one percent.
· Blood clots: 6 to 18 women per 1,000 experienced leg-vein clots; 1 to 2 per 1,000 threw a clot into the lung (pulmonary embolism).
· Maternal death: An analysis in Great Britain revealed that women were 5.5 times more likely to die of an elective cesarean, than a vaginal birth (9 versus 2 per 100,000) (25). A Dutch study found that c-sections caused seven times more deaths than vaginal births (28 versus 4 per 100,000) (50). Obviously some factors that lead to c-section also threaten the mother?s life. However, the British study used elective cesarean to minimize that possibility and the Dutch study investigated the exact cause of death. The numbers in the British study may also be low. Data culled from vital statistics undercount cesarean death rates by 40 to 50 percent (43, 46).
· Cutting the baby: This complication occurred in a little over one percent of head down babies and six percent of breech babies in one hospital and in one percent of babies overall in another (54, 56).
· Baby born in poor condition: Several studies get at the effect of cesarean section on the baby by looking at outcomes when the cesarean was not done for the baby's sake. One study concluded that newborns with low Apgar scores (a measure of the baby?s condition at birth) after healthy pregnancies are nearly half again as likely to be delivered by elective cesareans as born vaginally (11). Another study compared babies born by cesarean for reasons unrelated to the baby?s condition with low-risk vaginal births (6). Babies born by cesarean were nearly five times as likely to be admitted to intermediate or intensive care and five times more likely to need assistance with breathing. A third study reported that persistent pulmonary hypertension, a life threatening respiratory complication, occurred 4.5 times more often in babies delivered by elective cesarean than in vaginally born babies (29).
· Psychological problems: Regardless of whether women feel satisfied with the decision to perform a cesarean, many women have negative feelings afterwards (34). Some of those feelings are the expected emotional aftermath of any major surgery (34). Others originate specifically in having a cesarean, including such issues as the loss of the expected birth experience or needing an operation to have a baby. Postpartum depression is more likely after a cesarean (8). A few women experience posttraumatic stress reactions such as nightmares, flashbacks, or an overwhelming fear of pregnancy (47). Psychological problems can also lead to marital stress or difficulties forming an attachment to the baby (34).
· Scar tissue adhesions: Adhesions can cause pelvic pain, bowel problems, and pain during sexual intercourse. They also make subsequent cesareans more technically difficult and injury to other organs more likely.
Complications that could affect future pregnancies and births can include:
· Infertility: According to one survey, women whose first birth was a cesarean were 13 percent less likely to have had a second child five years later than women whose first birth was vaginal (28). Women are also slightly but significantly more likely to miscarry (27).
· Ectopic pregnancy: A life-threatening condition in which the embryo implants outside of the uterus, usually in the Fallopian tube leading to the ovary. 25 percent more likely (27).
· Placental abruption: Placenta detaches before the birth. Two to four times the risk compared with an unscarred uterus depending on whether the woman?s first birth was a cesarean, or she has more than one prior birth and at least one cesarean (27).
· Placenta previa: Placenta overlays the cervix. 4.5 times the risk with one prior cesarean, 7 times the risk with 2 to 3 and 45 times the risk with 4 (5).
· Placenta accreta or percreta: Placenta grows into, or through, the muscular wall of the uterus. 11 times the risk with multiple prior cesareans compared with one prior cesarean -- nearly 1 per 100 versus 1 per 1,000 (7). This complication is particularly deadly. In a study of 109 cases of placenta percreta, 40 percent of women required transfusion of more than 10 units of blood, nearly all had hysterectomies, and 10 babies and 8 mothers died (36).
· Uterine rupture (symptomatic scar separation): Planned repeat cesarean does not eliminate this risk. One study of nearly 67,000 California women reported that the scar gave way in 3 per 1,000 women having elective repeat cesareans, not much less than the 5 per 1,000 rate with trial of labor (23). Similarly, in a study of 29,000 Swiss women with prior cesareans, the rate of symptomatic scar separation was 4 per 1,000 in VBAC labors, but it was still 2 per 1,000 in repeat cesareans (41). All of these cesarean-related problems are rare. Nonetheless, in a series of 711 women with one or more prior cesareans, 1 in 42 women had a catastrophic complication, defined as maternal or fetal death, severe hemorrhage, hysterectomy, the need to tie off a major artery, or a uterine rupture requiring emergency surgery or resulting in a baby born in poor condition (12).
Because of the pain and debility that accompany any major surgery, even a cesarean with no complications will almost certainly make the early days and weeks after your delivery more difficult compared with a vaginal birth. Developing a minor complication, such as a mild infection, will magnify your difficulties and prolong recovery; developing a major one will magnify them many-fold. Also, cesarean section can put you behind a psychological eight-ball, adding to lesser or greater degree to the stresses of adapting to motherhood.
What is a reasonable cesarean section rate?
For nearly two decades, the U.S. national cesarean rate has drifted between 20 and 25 percent. That means one of every four to five women, or 800,000 to one million women, have given birth by major abdominal surgery every year. A reasonable cesarean rate for the typical obstetrician would be half or less of that percentage -- certainly no more than 15 percent.
Several U.S. hospitals serving primarily high-risk, low-income women have been able to maintain cesarean rates in the 10 to 12 percent range without any detriment in newborn outcomes, and one has consistently kept its rates below ten percent (24, 35, 39, 44, 48). Moreover, the World Health Organization concluded that since countries with some of the lowest stillbirth and newborn death rates (perinatal mortality) in the world had cesarean rates of less than 10 percent, there was no justification for any region to have a cesarean rate more than 10 to 15 percent (58). As for midwives, in looking at six studies of hospital-based midwives, all but one study reported rates of 10 percent or less, while of 29 studies of midwives attending births outside of the hospital, none reported a cesarean rate over seven percent (20).

3andnomore · 09/11/2006 14:43

oops...I meant to say had natural Births with es and ms, and emergency section with ys...

BlueberryPancake · 09/11/2006 15:03

Very interesting toady, should we go through the risks associated with a vaginal birth now? And you haven't covered the risks associated with the pain control options either, maybe we could list those ones as well? Oh hell, let's just scare the sh** out of all the pregnant mums out there, whilst we're at it. As we all know, scare tactics really do work.

Anway,Polly, I'm logging off cause I'm getting a bitpissed off about all this. I'm sure you'll make the right decision, good luck with everything.

Toady · 09/11/2006 15:09

Yes absolutely, please post all risks so Polly Paranoia has ALL the facts!!

topsy1 · 09/11/2006 15:10

i was/am making the same desicsion - had ds by em c-section 2years ago, and couldn't make up my mind what to do for lo2 (38 weeks preg now). i went through my notes in detail with present midwife especially the labour notes, and it was clear to me (and her) that if i went down the vbac route likely to end up with a em c-section. all diff reasons, but mainly WHY i ended up with em c-section (failure to progress) and why i didn't progress - never dialted, baby never engaged, fever (me) distress (lo), family history (mother had the smae) etc etc. what i'm saying is - is worth looking at why, becasue no 2 births are the same BUT some factors are..feel ALOT better now i've made the descision - elective next week. Good luck with making yours - very hard choice...

Toady · 09/11/2006 15:11

As for scaring the shit out of all pregnant mums, I am sorry if I have done this, personally I would like to have all the information that I can get!!!

PollyParanoia · 09/11/2006 15:16

Sorry you won't be here Blueberry as have found your comments very supportive as we're in a very similar boat and seem like fairly similar people, thus know that we're not approaching the decision casually.
I do know the risks of cs, but what no one seems to be able to tell me is the risks of an emergency cs vs an elective one. It's all very well telling women that they must have a vbac, but no one can guarantee a vaginal birth.
Yes, I've done lots of research and actually my sort of first birth (full dilation, failed instrumental) suggests that my chances of a successful vbac are somewhat lower than average.
Given that I have (at least) a one in three chance of a cs, then outlining the ghastly risks of one is, as Blueberry says, not particularly helpful. Plus if I try for a vbac, then there are other risks that I am opening myself up for.
Anyway, I don't want this thread to turn into contest between vbac and cs. Obviously a wondeful unmonitored active vbac is a better option. What has been helpful is discussion as to the relative "merits" of the different options as well as the experience of others.
Pol
ps Blueberry, if you're reading this, please come back!

OP posts:
PollyParanoia · 09/11/2006 15:18

And good luck to you Topsy for next week. I envy you having made the decision and being happy with it. I think that's really what we're all striving for.
Pol

OP posts:
Toady · 09/11/2006 15:26

I am sorry too, did not mean to upset you, should not have posted it.

MKG · 09/11/2006 15:27

Toady,

I'm pregnant, and I'm not scared. The info is a little overwhelming, but not scary.

PollyParanoia I've never had a C-section, but literally everyone I know has. In the past year 5 of my family and friends have had C-sections and I am the only one to go vaginally. Everyone turned out just fine.
You've already been through a section so you know what to expect the second time. People that I know that have had two or more say that the recovery is easier after the second. I think it's because you have other kids to take care of, and more reasons to get up, also you're body has experienced it before. People who have had electives have said that their attitude going in was better, they didn't have the fear of an emergency to deal with.

I don't know if this helps. Good luck to you.

Uwilalalalalala · 09/11/2006 15:30

Okay, if we are in favor of laying ALL the piska on the table for informed decision, then let us not leave out things ruptured uterous (worst cases lead to fetal and maternal death), tonr up fanjo, incontinence, broken coccyx, PND resulting from traumatic delivery, and so on...

Come on, let's be realistic. Those stats are sooooo biased, that they are well and truely misleading.

Uwilalalalalala · 09/11/2006 15:32

piska? Where did that come from?

piska=risks

PollyParanoia · 09/11/2006 15:32

Thanks MKG for that, you're right, it will all be fine whichever route I take.
And thanks Toady, too, I know that you didn't post the risks up out of anything other than wanting to be constructive. I think that anyone who's considering a cs in this situation can be over sensitive to charges of it being an unnecessary cs, because wanting to avoid another em cs does feel like a valid reason (hence the majority opting for the planned cs).
Still no nearer to making a decision though!

OP posts:
MKG · 09/11/2006 15:37

PollyParanoia --flip a coin. If you were meant to have vaginal it will happen. If you were meant to have C-section it will happen.

3andnomore · 09/11/2006 15:43

hm...polly, you say that you feel the risk of ending up with another emergency section is big, because you got fully dilated and had then a faile ventouse ending in e-c-section....well...incidently that is what happened with ys...but then in his case he could not come down because he was in posterior position with his head straight up....but that was just bad luck, and I suppose for that is "easier" to say, because of having had 2 natural Births, and es was posterior when he came out on gas and air, for the last hour both times...what I am trying to say is, that indeed you getting fully dilated is a positive sign, and if your lil one would have been in a different position he/she, can't remember now if you have a boy or girl already...sorry, would have probably come out fine.....were you told the reason why the ventouse failed and why he wouldn't come out..i.e. why you ended up wiht a C-section last time?

lulumama · 09/11/2006 15:51

Hi Polly- i think we met on a different thread!! i need to take some time to read all this through...but my gut feeling is vaginal birth is preferable to surgery.!!!

it is to big a decision to leave to the flip of a coin! i believe you can MAKE A VBAC HAPPEN!!!!

fear of birth is what i believe is standing in your way....antidote to fear is knowledge...knowledge is power...power is empowerment...empowerment is A GOOD BIRTHING EXPERIENCE!!!!

hire a doula ...! she will keep that fear at bay and give you the help to remember why you are doing this...

you need to understand and believe your body can do this....yes, toady/s list is scary....but it is also reality...c.s is not an easy option to take, even electively.........

if you have dilated once..your body can do this....you need to understand that you can......

will post more when have read everything else.....xxxx

lulumama · 09/11/2006 15:55

and the reason for yuor c.s previously is not neccesarily likely to recur is it? esp if due to baby's position......

i had a VBAC of posterior baby ..she turned though whilst i was in active labour and practically fell out!!!!! well, 30 mins of pushing isn't too long is it??

my em. c.s was failure to progress//that lovely catch all phrase they use when your labour doesn't follow the text book ....

ignore the underling......his job is too sound more important than he is...that means saying pointless and scary things!!

MKG · 09/11/2006 15:56

lulu you're always so positive

lulumama · 09/11/2006 15:57

tis my job...i am the VBAC advocate!!!!! self appointed obviously!!!

PollyParanoia · 09/11/2006 16:03

Yes Lulu we did meet on another thread and I have got a fab doula who is really supportive and I think will make all the difference in whatever I decide. I know it's better to be positive, but having been positive first time round and it all going wrong, I feel that birth isn't something that you can always control. In fact, I hate the idea that it is because that suggests that women who have "bad" births, are somehow responsible for it.
I think I fear that my pelvis isn't built for birth, which I know is illogical. My mother had problems giving birth and there does seem to be some hereditary element. Unlike a breech, I worry that baby getting stuck at pushing stage is something that might well occur again, esp when my notes don't really give a reason for why it happened first time and it wasn't even as if ds was big.
Having said that, I think I will prob go for a vbac but not allow myself to go much overdue (increased risk of meconium etc).

OP posts:
lulumama · 09/11/2006 16:08

you can;t control birth...but you can control how you feel about it......sometimes baby's just can't be born vaginally........rarely.

your pelvis is fine....there are very few women who truly have a pelvis not suitable for birthing...the fact your baby came (partially? through your pelvis..is good..

you need to try and find out why the baby got stuck..if it was due to say

brow presentation.....

the incidence of that is 1 in 500 births....very unlikely to happen to you again!!!!!

that is why debreifing after birth is so important , so you can understand the reasons why things happeneded

lulumama · 09/11/2006 16:11

glad you have got a doula.....i think that extra element of emotional support will get you where you need to be.......! you fear of the baby getting stuck again is possibly what is holding you back from making the final decision....i honestly think it is wort getting the answer to that!

Uwilalalalalala · 09/11/2006 16:12

Sorry, but that list doesn't jive with my take on "reality". It is biased and has used only the more extreme statistics need to support the view that vaginal birth is safer/better/blah blah blah.

And, I must also add that advising someone to ignore what the doctor has advised is most certainly n ot good advice.

Anyway, I haven't got time for a big debate on the issue, but I do think someone needs to point out that list is not unbiased accepted medical fact. It support one side of the coin.

I think you should take to your consultant and decide with him/her what the best course of action is. If you had never had a baby, I would say hey flip that coin either way is fine. But, since you've already had a section and therefore already have things like a flabby belly and itchy scar, I mean what's to lose by another? That's MY view and perhaps not right for you. But, I feel very strongly that the consultant is the expert and you should absolutely listen to his/her advise.

lulumama · 09/11/2006 16:19

i suggested ignore the underling.....underling being polly's description........her consultant is pro vbac......why is his underling undermining that..?

....we don;t have to blindly accept the doctors advice...nor take big decisions on the flip of a coin....and that list might be one sided...there are some positives to c.s...but the negatives apply too...same with vaginal delivery.......