Did you know you don't have to have VE's in labour?

[TheMule]

Hi all. I've actually posted a media request too as I'm writing an article about consent in childbirth. I'm not getting much response so I hope you don't mind my asking here too. I'm just curious to know how many women are aware that they don't HAVE to have procedures such as vaginal exams in labour to check dilation - unless of course they want to. I often hear women express surprise when they are told that they are not compulsory. So I'd love to hear your thoughts or experiences on this or any other issue related to freedom or consent. eg if you did not know that you could decline, if you tried to decline but met resistance, or if you declined and wished you hadn't! Thanks for your thoughts everyone, I realise this is a sensitive topic. I'm writing for the Telegraph online. I'm Milli and I write about birth and run an organisation called The Positive Birth Movement. Email me if you don't want to comment [email protected]. Best wishes, Milli x

http://midwifethinking.com/2011/01/22/the-anterior-cervical-lip-how-to-ruin-a-perfectly-good-birth/

Do contractions usually stop or slow down inbetween the end of transition and the start of the 2nd stage?

Seattle: A healthy baby is not all that matters. It is the most important thing, but it is not all that matters. My first birth and the treatment I receiced after it led to antenatal anxiety and PND after my second: I was very injured, had a very protracted recovery and still have perineal and pelvic issues.

Better than losing a baby? Absolutely. Okay? Absolutely not.

First time around I didn't know it wasn't compulsory. Was a home birth going swimmingly but midwife insisted on 2 VEs on my back, despite me telling her very clearly that I didn't want to lie down and screaming in pain. The second time she also did a sweep without asking permission.

Second birth, also at home, I did know I could refuse but midwife bullied me into one. I was in transition so totally out of it and in no fit state to resist. Think I vaguely accepted the notion that it must have been important, or she wouldn't have suggested it.

This is the problem isn't it - how are we supposed to know, while in labour, what's really necessary? It's depressing that we can't seem to trust the professionals to always act in our interests.

I think having a clear birth plan stating that you don't want any procedures or examinations of any sort unless absolutely necessary, and only with explicit consent, is a good start.
I put in mine that if the midwife had any concerns about my progress that she was to have a conversation with my husband out of earshot of me so that I wasn't brought out of the zone, and that the pros and cons of any suggested procedures/interventions should be discussed with him and agreed my him as my advocate if was unable to give explicit consent at the time. I'd read a lot about fear and uncertainly being bad for birth hormones, and I wanted to make sure I stated in my happy place!
It was never necessary, and after the initial VE which I agreed to on arrival, there were no other interventions or VEs discussed or needed.
Having your wishes written down shouldn't be necessary really, but I saw it as a sort of contract between me and the midwife - my birth, my rules

duplodon

I know. I think you have misread or misunderstood me somewhere.

'By optimal outcome I mean what the mother wants - I certainly don't believe that having a healthy baby is all a labouring woman should be concerned about, her thoughts, feelings and comfort are just as important'

I just went with 'no VEs' meaning that anything that might make them medically necessary would be avoided.

Also I assumed a panicked midwife NEEDING that information would make a bloody good case for my consent if 'medically necessary' for which zi could probably then agree.

Can anyone answer a question?

I went to hospital with what I thought were regular Braxton hicks contractions and had an internal exam which was really painful- it felt like the hcp was really digging around inside me.

Is that what a sweep is? Could my BH have calmed down if not for this? I always wondered if her enthusiasm was what made it turn into actual labour

It doesn't really matter now but I am curious

Hard to tell Chibi. She may have done a crafty sweep. However, it can also be really painful to have them 'digging around' if you are only a couple of centimetres.

I knew I could refuse, but consented to two ve's in labour, but what I wasnt asked about was the sneaky sweep that was given with the second ve- i was 6cm dilated! Still no idea why they bothered, but when I queried it the assembled docs and midwives merrily said I'd be glad of it in a bit as it would speed things along.

DS dutifully shot out like a bullet less than two hours later, and 12 weeks later im still feeling a bit pissed off!

I was a victim of sneaky sweeps. This was one of the many reasons why I refused any internal exams during my second, third and fourth labours. Some MW and doctors cannot be trusted. Some MW and doctors should be struck off for their casual disregard of women, their bodies and their choices. What gives any HCP the right to perform any procedure on anyone without their consent? Their arrogance is shocking.

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-health/11574412/British-women-Consent-during-childbirth-is-a-joke.html

I was asked while discussing birth plan if I would consent to VE. Didn't realise I had a choice. ?Xx

A good article, I thought. Some absolutely ghastly comments, mostly from men by the looks of it, saying that the little woman should just shut up and let Doctor get on with it. But the quick survey that the Telegraph asks you to take came up with 34% of women not being asked for consent.

OMG I'm quoted in the headline!

I hate the torygraph but I'm buying it today!

Have just read the article (good work, Milli!) but had to stop after about two comments. The arrogance of some of the posters is just incredible, to the point where it actually makes me feel queasy. These are the kind of people that believe women with a sex life (or perhaps any women at all) are less entitled to rights than the white man. Disgusting.

Milli, I wonder if you'd have had a different response in the Guardian, for example?

I have normally little time for the Torygraph but I usually find that when it comes to birth stories or even science stories generally they do a much better job than the Guardian.

God those comments are vile misogynistic twaddle aren't they.

Apparently we should all educate ourselves on the necessity of knowing the level of dilation of the cervix! Suggest that particular twat gets themselves over to read the discussion and the very nuanced understanding shown by many posters on the value of that knowledge.

God insights into people's thoughts depress me sometimes.

Wonder how those men commenting would respond if they were told they needed rectal exams to check up on their prostate glands each time they were examined. I suspect the answer would be 'no thanks'.

Hi all. I'm sorry it's taken me a while to join in with this thread. I've been waiting and waiting for the piece to come out! First of all I just wanted to thank you all for the amazing contributions on this thread - for your brutal honesty - what an amazing space and I will be back on mumsnet again for sure!
Thanks for linking to the article. As for the comments section - I wouldn't really pay that any attention. Comments sections are notoriously full of very strange bigots who seem to reserve their weird views exclusively for comments sections! I don't think they represent the world at large. Or if they do - I'm outta here!
I've written for the Guardian a couple of times and have seen some fairly dense comments there too. I don't think anywhere is safe from the comments section freaks. I like to remember Lewis's Law - it brings me great comfort. "Comments on articles about feminism, justify feminism."
I do hope the wider effect of the article is to get people talking about this issue more and for changes to be made.
Thanks again to all of you for this discussion, love for now, Milli xxx

That was the one I was thinking of! Couldn't get Godwin 's law out of my head.

It was a great piece. I once tried to join in on the comments on an article on homebirth . I have since learned not to.

Thanks for the article. It's important to raise these things and it looks like the RC of Midwives have taken note and listened.

I rarely 'comment' at the end of articles either. It's always a place of rants, rather than discussion and I think it is a complete waste of my 'voice'.

Good article, thank you.

This is a very interesting new article on VE's that some of you might find helpful. midwifethinking.com/2015/05/02/vaginal-examinations-a-symptom-of-a-cervix-centric-birth-culture/

Best, Milli x