I don't think "too posh to push" cs should be allowed on the NHS

[SoupDragon]

And by "too posh to push" I mean can't be ar$ed to do it "naturally, want to fit the birth into a busy schedule or want it early to avoid stretch marks. That kind of thing.

Obviously where there is a medical need (and by this I include maternal fear/distress where it can not be allayed beforehand} then yes, they should be provided by the NHS.

In the same way, I did not expect the NHS to provide me with a birthing pool, pay for the electricity and increased heating costs or provide me with food for my home waterbirth.

(yes, I know this will descend into popcorn and hard hats but I don't want to clutter up the other posters thread )

I've read Aloha's account of her labour/eventual section, and Greensleeves' too, aghast and sad.

I'm in no position to judge what kind of birth is right for another woman and I feel very strongly that women should have the information given to them to make informed choices, but they should ultimately be the ones to make the choice.

I think that nothing fully prepares you for how you react to giving birth. You can have all the classes going, but nobody can tell you how you'll feel after having a baby. Some wonen who have appalling deliveries don't get PND - some women who have "straightforward" births do.

OK for me giving birth was the most empowering experience I've ever had. I was in charge the whole time, and in reinforced that I am a capable person. That is why I make cheesey references to "sense of power" I would never want a C-section (but am mentally prepared for the reality should it arise).

Greensleave I just think you should feel more empowered than most women. You went through a torture and you survived. Anyone who goes through a traumatic birth should come out feeling good about themselves. I didn't think that would come across well.

I don't say anything out of research just personal experience.

Of course VBAC should be offered as a best option to women whose first deliveries were emergency sections if the reasons are unlikely to recur.

But currently VBAC comes with such major strings attached (hugely medicalised, largely immobile birth in limited timeframe etc etc) that the too posh to push argument is, I feel, totally inappropriate to that situation.

I had a requested cs and I would have had a breakdown if I hadnt been allowed one,Im not going to give my reasons here for requesting one,thats private.
however I dont think any doctor or nurse would allow a cs to happen on the nhs requested or not if they really thought the mother could do it without one...physically or mentally.

For those that pay to have a section....fair play...they have their own money why should anyone tell them where to spend it or what to spend it on....

Are VBACs common in the UK. I'm always fascinated at the differences I learn on MN between the US and the UK

I was having a "natural" birth up until week 34ish where my blood pressure rocketed and they talked about admitting me to hospital because they couldn't quite make up their mind on whether I had pre-eclamspia or not. During on of the stays I had at the hospital they then decided that baby was breech, and scared the crap out of me when discussing "turning" and the risks of "rupture" or "tearing" and "emergency section" and "because they look like a large baby"...
I opted for a section due to position, my blood pressure and the fact that on top of that everybody I asked who'd had a breech birth (apart from mumsnetters) had told me not to do it.
So I had a section.
Do I feel I took the easy route? Possibly.
Do I worry about the cost / pressure I put on the NSH? Do I buggary.
I pay my taxes. I was not going to risk a shitty breech birth, possible problems with me due to blood pressure and to dd with positioning etc.
I disagree with people who smoke getting sick and having treatment and STILL smoke. But nobody says they should pay to go private because of it. Everybody has a subject that gets ants in their pants and pisses them off, and "elective" sections just doesn't do it for me.

I know what you mean, MKG, and I'm glad you felt empowered by your labour - what you say makes sense. I wish I did feel like that. But I don't - I just felt abused and shell-shocked, no feelings of power. I think women and babies and midwives and doctors are all so different that it's unwise to try to have hard and fast rules. I would like to see more of a culture of listening to women, as well as bombarding them with information and instructions.

"Anyone who goes through a traumatic birth should come out feeling good about themselves. I didn't think that would come across well. "

but very often don't, sadly...my birth was not one hundredth as bad as greensleeves, but i was traumatised and had PND as a result...for 4 years!

what should happen and what really happens are not always the same....which is disappointing

and where is aloha's story? don;t recall her posting on here...unless i have missed a bit??

Actually the only woman I know who was really too posh to push is a female doctor, who had seen too many bad births and chose to have an elective csection herself.

But apart from her, I can't think of anyone - surely all c-sections are done for some sort of medical reason, aren't they? OK, you could argue about whether the reason was justified - eg "It's perfectly possible to give birth vaginally to a breech baby" or "The risk of scar rupture is overrated" - but ultimately, there is normally an underlying medical reason. And of course it should be up to each individual woman to make that choice.

And Soupdragon, no I don't think the NHS should have paid for your heating bill or the cup of tea for the midwife, because presumably it was already picking up the tab for the much bigger cost of paying the midwife. Who was giving you one-to-one care, which you'd never have got in hospital. And you could have gone into hospital and used their birthing pool, their electricity and eaten their food if you'd chosen to - don't blame you for not wanting to, but you can't then expect them to pay for your home comforts.

One thing my hypnobirthing instructor told us was not to listen to people's horror stories because it will influence our birthing experience. Isn't that a load of crap.

MKG - I may be the exception that proves the rule, but I came out out of my emergency incredibly proud, and without a shred of regret.

mine's the OP

This is my birth story, I posted it many months ago and got lots of support (another thing I have to thank MN for).

DH and I are talking about having another baby and we were discussing last night the fact that I can't think about childbirth without shaking and feeling sick. We discussed talking to the consultant about an elective c-section before trying to conceive, although we haven't decided anything yet.

If you don't like long, gruesome horror stories, don't click on my link

dear god, greensleeves, that's atrocious. words fail me.

Greensleaves--I don't know what to say, just

i def didn't bond as well when i had my c/s as when i had vbac,when i had the c/s the baby was whisked away and then stopped breathing so didn't see baby for a while but when i delivered vbac the baby was mine straight away, re price of births it does cost so much more having a c/s as a doctor has to perform the operation, where as midwife delivers the baby, doctors are paid more and you need more doctors in the theratre, i thought that bit was obvious about pricing

It's sad that the system failed you twice.

Well maybe we should all give birth on our own behind a bush somewhere and then there would be no expense to NHS. Childbirth happens. It can either happen with assistance or not. If we reckon that it's better for mother and baby and society as a whole if we receive assistance surely the mother should be involved in deciding which way of giving birth is the least traumatic for her. If that means opting for a caesarian then surely she is entitled to support for that as much as for a vaginal birth. Who on earth would volunteer for major abdominal surgery on a whim? Having said that I do think that if women were supported better and better informed about childbirth then there wouldn't be the fear there is that makes some women opt for caesarean. I do get a bit fed up hearing how women are such a burden to society. Especially when they are producing the next generation and given how childbirth affects the mental state of so many women I really do think people should be more supportive of women in these circumstances.

Jesus wept , greensleeves.........................

i could sit here for a day and not even be able to partly express how ..well, the words actually fail me......

PTSD ,do you think? have you had counselling?

Greensleeves, that's horrendous. What a bunch of shitty people you've encountered, poor you. Did you ever go for counselling?

Your story is so similar to mine when i visited my consultant to book my 3rd section, my memories of my 2nd section were horrific much the same as yours and ending up in intensive care, my consultant wasnt at all sympathetic, wasnt concerned at all that i was worried to death of doing another secion, in the end he brought me tears, told me i had the most straight forward section anyone could ever have, yeh right -

He wrote all over my notes difficult patient over emotional WTF - 8 months pg and shitting herself - this letter comes up on thescreen everytime i go to see the doctor as well

however i swaped hospitals and had the most lovely section if possible anyone could ever have

I didn't really mean to hijack the entire thread, sorry

It was all ages ago, I am OK now.

I think kidstrack had a good point about CS deliveries often meaning that the mother doesn't get physical contact with the baby as an immediate climax to the birth. I did with one of mine and not the other, and I do think it made a difference.

jeesus effing christ greeny, words utterly fails me.

how atrocious

[angry angry angry]

god almighty.

I feel so strongly that every woman should have as positive a childbirth experience as possible. I mean, yes crap happens, of course, but the healthcare professioals have a serious duty, IMO, to recognise the magnitude of what they are dealing with, and have a bit (a lot) of fecking respect for the fact that this is someone being born and some other people becoming parents ... .

Have you considered any form of counselling or similar? It'd be a bloody miracle if you came out of that unscathed, IMO. Oh god so deeply

[am sorry if I am you with my fury. But think this is . I feel quite strongly about maternity services and choice and etc)

So do I I actually think discussions of this sort are something MN does rather well. I know a hell of a lot more now than I did before I joined MN - if we do have another baby, things will be different!!

I have often wondered why some doctors, consultants, midwives etc actually chose obstetrics. They don't have to after all.
If you have no sympathy with a pregnant woman or a new mother then why go into that field of medicine?