I don't think "too posh to push" cs should be allowed on the NHS

[SoupDragon]

And by "too posh to push" I mean can't be ar$ed to do it "naturally, want to fit the birth into a busy schedule or want it early to avoid stretch marks. That kind of thing.

Obviously where there is a medical need (and by this I include maternal fear/distress where it can not be allayed beforehand} then yes, they should be provided by the NHS.

In the same way, I did not expect the NHS to provide me with a birthing pool, pay for the electricity and increased heating costs or provide me with food for my home waterbirth.

(yes, I know this will descend into popcorn and hard hats but I don't want to clutter up the other posters thread )

that was the same with me kitty they wanted to give me an elective c/s second time round, so glad i didn't agree to it

Oh, and I agree with all of that you just posted, Soupy, too

Haven't met any 'too posh to push'ers myself, not quite sure what it means (too workaholic?? too scared, but pretending its inconvenient??) but maybe they exist!

but there is a difference between someone who has had a traumatic birth and therefore wants a section because of a fear that the birth will be the same the next time, and someone who wants a section purely because she is afraid of giving birth. In the first instance the woman will have had experience of a traumatic birth, and of course it's natural she will want to avoid the same happening, but in the second instance the woman simply has a fear of the unknown, and therefore I really don't see a reason for a section. and as for the woman who had her hair done before, I think she should have to pay.

i too was offered a c.section without any discussion for my second birth...so that;s 3 of us who could have had a section...because we wanted to! rather than a medical reason... so there must be an awful lot more...

I think that women who have had one c section should be given the option of VBAC or a second section. I chose the latter, and in the end my reasons for wanting one were well founded ie the state of my scar. I would have dreaded VBAC, and this was not an ignorent fear, but a well founded one based on my previous gynaecological history. I feel women deserve the choice

kitty-at least you had the option and were able to empower yourself with it.

Well, I have been given the choice of section from the start this pregnancy because of previous section, age, and history of PIH. I was also given the choice to wait and see what the situation was at 34-36 weeks and go for VBAC if all looked ok.

I feel so supported by being given those choices, I can't tell you - it means I'm relaxed and trusting enough to dare to do VBAC if its an option in a couple of weeks' time, I don't feel pressured or defensive, and my chance of a 'good birth' (whichever sort) is excellent.

Last pregnancy, I felt pressured towards ONE sort of birth throughout my pregnancy - and it messed everything up. It doens't even matter which one - it was the pressure and lack of space to get to what was right for me that did it.

mmmm... I asked for an eledtive section, because I had a terrible 1st birth. I also had a very close bereavement when I was pregnant, which resulted in really terrible anxiety.
I was encouraged to see a specialist midwife to talk through fears and it was very helpful. However I still opted for a c-section, and it was the best decision I ever made, as well as been one of the most fantastic experiences of my life.
Does this make me "too posh to push"? I don't think so, too scared perhaps. However I don't see why this matters to anyone else but me. I could go on about smokers costing NHS too much because I don't smoke, or obese people for eating too much, and costing NHS too much but it isn't really any of my business. At the same time perhaps people who get depression should be told to pull themselves together, rather than getting medicine because it might cost the NHS too much. Where does it end?
I pay my taxes and insurance contributions, so ultimately I pay for the NHS, along with everyone else who works.

Hmm, I would find the process of deciding whose feelings were valid and whose were not rather complex. I'm not sure who exactly would be in a position to make those decisions or how that would work in practice.

I agree with Blu that very few women would actually opt for major abdominal surgery unless they felt they had very good reasons.

Re 'who would be in a position to make those decisions' - the women!

Lulumama - but I would class being offered a CS simply because you had a CS last time in the category of 'cautious consultant / medicallised approach' rather than 'too posh to push'.

I do think it is hard to know where to draw the line as to who should be treated if you widened the scope of who should/shouldn't receive treatment. I do personally think that smokers shouldn't get treatment unless they commit to giving up smoking for life, that alcoholics shouldn't receive liver transplants unless they commit to rehabilitation/giving up for the rest of their lives, but then we enter into difficult teratory, should we not treat people with sports injuries for instance because they choose to do a dangerous sport and therefore know the risks? Where do you draw the line at what kind of lifestyle warrants treatment and what doesn't.

Message withdrawn

If you want to share Normsnockers I'm all ears.

Surely if a woman is forced to have a natural birth against her will and despite being terrified of it then her risk of PND will be much higher. I would imagine the costs of treating PND plus a natural birth with epidural and top ups would be very close to the cost of a planned caesarian, if not more, plus it would be more traumatic for the mother, and if she got PND, the child too.
I would guess the cost to the NHS of women who are 'too posh to push' is miniscule and pretty irrelevant in terms of budgets.

Well, that was what I meant EliBoo - I don't think anyone other than the women in question should be making the decisions!!

I was responding to wannabe's post about some fears about childbirth being valid enough and others not.

Blu - my midwife offered it at the booking in....with no knowledge of why i had a c section previously and the fact my section had triggered massive PND....so not over cautious...not bloody interested!

Normsnokcers.. i would like to hear your reasons....

"orced to have a natural birth against her will and despite being terrified of it" no one is suggesting that. Well, I wasn't, I said that maternal fear was valid but attempts shuld be made to address it beforehand.

bibliophile- no-one is suggesting forced natural delivery...counselling and other ways to allay women's fear of birth has been mentioned many times...and ultimately, if a woman elects for a c.s,and it is the right decision for her , having gone through the options...fine... doens;t mean the pros and cons can't be looked at.

Actually, I did have a second section because I was too scared to try for vbac. It was made very easy for me to do so. It really affected my view of myself as a mother. i felt taht i had not been at all pro active in giving birth. it lead to pnd and inability to bond with my baby for years.
What I wish is that I had been given the appropriate support WAY BEFOREHAND so that my decision was not made in blind panic and fear.
I had a vbac for my third birth and that was fantastic.

Greensleeves, yes - sorry, thought you were referring to something I might have posted: confusion born of trying to make supper and MN at same time

Normsknockers, yes please...

Lulumama, agree that lack of interest/attention from the very start is wrong and poor practice, regardless of what is suggested. Assuming a VBAC would have been as wrong as assuming a section, IMO - have a sneaky suspicion we're mostly agreeing here, section v no section not being the issue!

wasn't there research published somewhere recently that women who had sections were more likely to suffer from pnd and that they found it more difficult to bond with their babies? something to do with the hormones that are released during the baby's descent down the birth canal that are not released if she has a section.

think you're right about the agreeing!!

and yes...very wrong for a medical professional to presume either way

DS was delivered by ventouse, and I insisted on an epidural. The mws tried to persuade me to try g&a, but i wouldn't even try one suck. I had been in labour with no pain relief - quite ok, really - but was in such a panic about lying on my back that I demanded an epidural. Probably it wasn't strictly necessary, especially given that I refused to even ty g&a - should I have been allowed, or had to pay? The fact that I was listened to and they simply fetched the expensibve night shift aneasthetist made me feel a lot better about the whole thing. The reason I had gone for a homebirth was that I was terrified of feeling like a slab of meat in a hospital and wanted to feel in control. Should I have had to pay? Looking back, I don't think it was 100% reasonable of me to have demanded an epidural.

Hmm, research in areas like this is very nebulous and everchanging. The trouble is that women are individuals and their circumstances differ.

I won't go into detail here because it's not the time, but after ds1's birth I felt as though I had been hit by a train, for months and months. I felt as though I had died in the hospital and there was nothing left of me to take care of the baby. I was a mess, physically and mentally. I still feel quite ill and tense when I think about it. I was offered the option of a C-section the second time, because the doctors/midwives remembered me and knew that I had had a horrific birth which very nearly killed me and my baby. There was some question as to whether they should have called it a day and done a section, rather than let ds1's birth continue into the horrific fiasco it was.

I think I'm just saying that individual women's cirumstances and feelings are so intensely personal and so hugely diverse that it worries me when people say very general things like "fear of vaginal birth" isn't a valid reason for a C-section, or "Women are more likely to have PND if they have a section". I think a more sensitive listening approach is called for in making these monumental decisions about people's lives.