NCT to run classes for the NHS

[Ushy]

I heard this on the news this morning and groaned! I think they are a great organisation for making friends but I certainly would not want them running NHS classes. I have had varying reports from friends who attended courses given by different NCT teachers but mine was definitely 'natural good' 'and 'epidurals and caesareans bad'. Complete nonsense as most of our group ended up with complications. Annoyingly, there was no understanding that some of us don't want natural childbirth - not that we are 'fearful' or 'don't have confidence in our bodies - none of that - we just don't WANT it.

I think classes should be run by midwives in the NHS.
What to MNers think?

Its even worse than this. The NCT seem to be taking over the baby clinics as well. In our are the plan is to have NCT breastfeeding peer supporters in every clinic. The NCT select the women and the health visitors have no input into deciding whether a woman is suitable or not.

I had very good ante natal classes with the NCT ten years ago, because I did not have the option of NHS classes because of moving area. Like you I have had varying reports from friends.

I think a big problem in the past has been the type of women attracted to the NCT rather than the NCT itself. Ie. the type who think that complications in labour are avoidable and cannot recongise the role that sheer luck plays.

I think we need a campaign to save our lovely NHS.

If someone starts an Mners campaign, I'll certainly sign up reallytired

What's wrong with NCT BF trained supporters? The NCT and LLL are the main providers of BF training so that makes sense.

The NCT running antenatal classes - well you've described interventions as "complications" so they're not necessarily a good thing. And in the age of austerity, they cost money which is the usual excuse rolled out by the government for anything these days.

The NCT has experience of running classes so makes sense for the NHS to tap into that but the NHS should be dictating the content.

If you don't like the NCT classes then why don't you feedback?

Iggly,
I completely agree with you the nhs should be dicating the content. The problem is choice. There are someone who do not like the NCT or LLL. I like both the NCT and LLL, but I would hate it if the NHS option disappeared.

A health visitor or midwife is a highly trained professional. Many women want the care of a highly qualified person for their care. A lot of women need someone who is non judgemental, not trying to push a particular brand of parenting or way of giving birth. NHS antenatal and postnatal classes gave a way for these health professionals to get to know women.

If someone wants support from LLL or the NCT then they are entitled to go to NCT or LLL events.

Iggly I am not saying the NCT is a bad organisation - on the contrary it is great for making friends. Its classes, though, are variable Some are excellent and balanced, others are cultish and too focussed on natural childbirth. Also , they are delivering information about hospitals where they don't work. Surely, this should be done by the midwives who work in the hospital, who see the reality of childbirth daily and know current practice.

Btw, I for one, did feed back to my NCT class leader at one point- very politely and to be honest it made no difference. There are a some NCT teachers who have an almost religious belief in natural birth. A feedback form or coment at a meeting is not going to change that.

Not sure I agree that complications are interventions. I have had complications and if I had not have had interventions my baby would have died. The lawsuit that followed would have been a lot more expensive than the intervention.

Reallytired sorry my post crossed with yours. I totally agree with you.

The NCT antenatal teachers are all properly trained and so you will get amuich better quality of course imo. The NHS parentcraft course I attended was VERY basic. The NCT goes into a lot more detail and are much more informed.

The NCT has started to move towards being less pro-bfing - all teachers will have to talk about bottle feeding in future courses, for example - as a move to being more inclusive.

I think it's a great idea for the NHS to outsource courses to the NCT- saves the NHS money, and better utilises the NCT tutors, many of whom only teach a few classes per year. Apparently there are fewer couples wanting/being able to affoprd NCT classes so this sounds like a better idea all round.

I have a biased view because I've been to three very good sets of NCT classes (twice as a parent and once as a class supporter) and one set of very bad NHS classes that I didn't bother finishing. These were taught by the dimmest MW in town so many NHS class must be better.

Yes NCT classes are biased towards aiming for as natural a birth as possible followed by BF, because that's surely most Mums to bes ideal.

All the courses I've been to have included all forms of pain relief and what happens at a CS.
The only thing not included was FF and that's not a difficult add on.

I have a friend who teaches for the NCT they are very well trained and have many non natural personal experiences!

I have to say that my experience of NCT classes, only a few weeks ago in London, was far superior to the NHS classes offered by midwives at the hospital where we're planning to have our baby. I was a bit horrified by the basicness and grimness of the NHS classes to be honest, to the point of rethinking giving birth in that hospital, because the two midwives giving the classes were so problematic in their different ways, and so focused on the limitations of what could be offered because the NHS was so stretched.

I did think the NCT course was expensive, and while the teacher's own bent was evidently very much towards natural birth, I asked a lot of questions about complications and interventions, and she was perfectly willing to direct the discussion that way.

It said on the radio that the NCT has doubled in size in the last seven years which i find odd becasue they can't fill their classes round here. I thought they were very expensive.

NCT charges huge amounts for people to train up as one of its tutors (£6000 to £12000 )and I can't believe the tutors get their money back because, as you say, there are too few women with the money to pay for the courses.

I think we should stick with NHS midwives.

Hardcheese Yous said "the two midwives giving the classes were so problematic in their different ways, and so focused on the limitations of what could be offered because the NHS was so stretched"

That is exactly what I am getting at. It is no good having someone who doesn't know the reality giving out the information - at least then you are free to make your choices and go elsewhere - if necessary and if you can afford it into the private sector but if not to a better hospital.

I made the point about NCT vs LLL for BF because midwives are not trained in breastfeeding. So makes sense to get Counsellors who are and the short cut is to use NCT.

For antenatal classes - well it shouldn't matter who does it, as long as all options are presented objectively and realistically. But they're not just about presenting facts as there's an emotional side too.

My NHS breastfeeding class was much better than the NCT one - neither were without some flaws but if I'd only done one, I'd choose the NHS every time. The NCT class specifically about breastfeeding was fairly wishy-washy and some of the other couples on the class felt the same way too.

My main NCT teacher was not 100% pushy pro-natural birth, though, she was very good about explaining all the options and 'whatever works to get the baby out'. 2 people in our group are already down as ELCS for valid, genuine reasons and she's been very supportive to them.

I went to NHS and NCT ante-natal classes with my first child.

The NHS ones were pretty good.
The NCT ones were awful, absolutely awful. If anyone wants me to rant I can do so at length

Agree that the variation in NCT classes is too great, it seems entirely dependent on whether you get a decent person taking them or not.

marshmallowpies any woman who chooses an ELCS has already made a 'valid' choice. Namely, her birth choice, not to be approved or judged by anyone.

"I made the point about NCT vs LLL for BF because midwives are not trained in breastfeeding. So makes sense to get Counsellors who are and the short cut is to use NCT. "

However women are more than just a pair of breasts. Maybe a breastfeeding zealot could get a mother to breastfeed sucessfully, but the wrong approach could result in a mother with postnatal depression. Midwife/ health visiting training takes a long time for good reason.

If a mother wants to see an NCT/ LLL breastfeeding councellor then there is nothing to stop her from going to sessions organised by these charities. However it is a sad day when these charities replace what was once offered by the NHS.

Reallytired "However it is a sad day when these charities replace what was once offered by the NHS."

Here, here! !00% with you on that:-)

Highlander - sorry, I wasn't trying to be judgy or word things in a particularly loaded way, just trying to explain briefly what happened at my NCT class without actually going into details of these 2 mums circumstances, as that's not really for me to go into here.

At least one of them, though, was coming under pressure from a community midwife to aim for a natural birth and have ELCS as a 'last resort' but the NCT teacher was much more adamant that she should stick to her instincts if she wanted an ELCS.

I had a brilliant NCT teacher who was very supportive of choices and devoted a lot of time talking about c-sections in a very helpful & positive way. One woman in our group was scheduled for a ELCS (although she ended up having a VB) and we did a whole role-play with what all the different people in the room would be doing etc as well as loads of info on stuff you could do to make the experience as calm & enjoyable as possible. A lot of interventions do have potential repercussions for both mothers and babies, I believe it's important to know what those are in order to make an informed decision. However she was very very careful to stress that birth was just the start and that however we gave birth, any outcome with a healthy mother and baby was a success.

I'm currently getting a lot of support from the NCT with breastfeeding, I've been unable to get it properly established so far but at no point have they put pressure on me to prioritize BFing over my own mental health / ability to sleep, in fact they have recommended that i mixed feed for a few weeks until I'm feeling a bit more robust. I've already managed a lot more than I did with my first son and I'm grateful for that.

Really tired " you said "I made the point about NCT vs LLL for BF because midwives are not trained in breastfeeding"

Is that true? I thought midwives get a lot of training on breastfeeding. Any midwives here?

Sorry Really but I think that's a bit ridiculous to call them zealots.

MWs/HVs do plenty of damage with their ill informed advice on BF, making mums feel they fail for not having enough milk/wrong nipples etc etc.

I've used BF counsellors and they've all been supportive and most importantly well informed. they're not zealots.

The NHS offered me naff all when I have had a multitude of bf problems so the BF counsellors don't replace, they supplement.

ReallY sorry, I just realised you were quoting Iggly.

Is it really true though, that midwives don't receive any breastfeeding training? I remember a midwife who said she was in charge of promoting BF.

Sticking with NHS midwives would seem to be an ideal situation - if a) there were enough of them, b) funds could be found for more NHS MWs and c) they were adequately trained to teach antenatal classes. As it is, this isn't going to happen, clearly.

I think NCT trained antenatal teachers teaching classes for the NHS is a great solution, frankly. I'm sorry if anyone has had bad experiences of NCT antenatal courses (incidentally, it is always possible to enroll in them for very little money if you have a low income) but the training certainly does NOT teach the course leaders to parrot the commonly-perceived 'NCT line' (which does not exist) of 'c-section/epidural bad, natural vaginal birth good'. What NCT classes do, and what NHS classes should do, is to prepare parents for the sorts of things that might happen, and to give them a lot of disinterested information with which to made educated choices about their own labours and births. If that isn't happening in your NCT class, PLEASE complain to the NCT! They'd really like to know, so that individual teachers can be alerted and re-trained, if necessary.

As for NCT bfcs 'taking over' baby clinics - wow, we'd love that round here. I can't see why this is a problem. HVs are generally slated on here for offering poor or under-informed advice for breastfeeding mothers. NCT bfcs are very well trained and will continue to keep their research and training 'fresh'. They aren't zealots, they are mums like you and me who care passionately that women who want to breastfeed should be given all the support and information they need to do so. I think it's a bloody scandal that the NHS can't do this for women, frankly.