Is there a casual and callous attitude towards pregnancy and childbirth in society?

[PeaceAndHope]

Hello everyone:)

I'm sorry if I have posted my question in the wrong section but since I am a newbie I hope you'll all overlook it.

I have spent a lot of time recently wondering about the varied attitudes to childbirth and pregnancy and the lack of proper information regarding the process amongst most people.

I do believe that with the advancement of technology and better care we have been able to make the process a lot safer than it was in say the 1700s when the maternal mortality rate was 35%. However, it is my observation that people tend to take the whole thing for granted and assume all will be well because "women have been doing this for millenia".

I have keenly researched this subject and I have noticed that whenever I point out the risks associated with pregnancy and birth the reactions are those of disbelief and annoyance. I once brought up the possibility of fecal incontinence post childbirth and was admonished (by a man) to stop 'scaring people'.

I recently read a comment on a men's website that said "Pregnancy is the safest thing ever. It's not dangerous-to say that it is dangerous is misleading".
I certainly agree that the mortality rates in the developed world are rather low, but death is not the only thing that makes a process risky.

Pregnancy comes with superficial risks like permanent body changes to more serious ones such as permanent incontinence, diabetes, hypertension, uterine prolapse, obstetric fistulas (although these are rare), and even a permanent colostomy. Even in the developed world women still die of haemorrhage and aneurysms while giving birth.

Why is it that bringing this up tends to anger most people? Why do most people deny that these complications exist despite clear cut medical evidence that they do?

Is it traditionalism by virtue of which women are "meant" to bear children and therefore how can the process not be safe? Or is it just a paternalistic refusal to acknowledge that women do put themselves at risk for a series of complications (irrespective of whether they occur) when they have children?

I am not trying to imply that pregnancy and childbirth are horrible, evil things but I do believe that the attitude towards them is a bit casual and ignorant.

Your thoughts please?

In answer to your questions.
1.It is only pain. It is causing me no damage. It is temporary, it won't last forever.
2.The other choice is to remain childless or adopt. 45% (ish) of pregnancies are unplanned. (my first was a 'happy accident')
3.I will not have the body of a 20 year old forever, even if I don't have kids.
4.So can crossing the road/ driving/smoking/ choking/ being hit by a sharp object in the wind and being decapitated. You've got to die of something.

I trusted my body. Its done me pretty well so far. Its never let me down. It did well giving birth. Twice.

BadDayAtTheOrifice:

I agree. Although I wouldn't categorically rule out hospital births. I think the hospital will be a safer place to birth when women know the real risks of interventions and are aware about the situations where those interventions would actually be required. If we have better informed women then they will be in a better position to assert themselves during labour and delivery and refuse what they aren't comfortable with.

As someone who lost a nephew during a homebirth gone horribly wrong I can say that there is certainly something to be said about having emergency facilities at hand during childbirth. The process can throw up some unexpected and less than pleasant surprises which we can't always be prepared for.
Nevertheless I still encourage homebirths. And hospital births and elective cesarians and anything else that women wish to make informed decisions regarding.

BadDay:

My body survived as well. That isn't really the point. Majority of female bodies do survive the process. Mere survival isn't really the goal though is it?

I find your attitude a bit casual as well. It is only pain, but would you say the same to someone who is having an amputation or surgery? "It is just pain, it's temporary, so get on with it"? I imagine not. Then why treat the very real pain of childbirth casually?

Most women desire children at some stage. Some really yearn to be mothers. The tradeoff for us is to risk the complications I mentioned. Most women do it without complaining but does that mean it doesn't bother them to have those complications? Does it mean we disregard those complications that can indeed alter the lifestyle of a person?

Of course nobody will have the body of a 20 year old forever! I just saw my 23 year old niece's post baby body. She could have easily avoided the stretch marks, sagging breasts, and cellulite for another 20 years if she hadn't had kids yet. Pregnancy does deteriorate the appearance faster and while it may not have been an issue for you some women struggle with self esteem issues regarding their post baby bodies.

BadDay:

What would you say to some at a high risk of cancer? That he/she has got to die of something? Anything potentially life threatening shouldn't be treated with this kind of disregard.

I am 17 weeks pregnant and will have to have an induced birth due to developing blood clots on the brain at 11 weeks (caused by severe morning sickness) which led to me having a stroke. Not all the risks of pregnancy are "superficial".

I would have avoided having the stroke if I hadn't tried to "soldier on" as so many people (including my mother and husband) pointed out I was only pregnant not ill.

Doubledare:

Thank you for sharing your story. I am terribly sorry to hear about your experience.

I think the attitude of your mother and husband is the kind that I was referring to in my OP.

I hope they are more sensitive to your condition now.

Thanks PeaceAndHope.

Yes, everyone around me is now on a mission to spread the word that if someone is suffering severe morning sickness they are to get straight to a doctor. Doctors take Hyperemesis Gravidarum very seriously as they are aware of how many problems it can cause.

Doubledare:

I am glad to hear that. I've learned something new today as I wasn't aware of this possible complication at all. I will be sure to spread the word as well.

What happens now? Do you still have symptoms? When will you be induced? How does this affect your post partum health and your baby?

I have not merely 'survived' childbirth. I have no long term issues from my pregnancies/births that affect me (not at the moment, anyway, I cannot forsee what the future has to hold for me).

I don't think my attitude to pain is 'casual'. Pain is something that is much feared in this society. It is something that must not be felt and must be 'relieved' and not 'suffered'.
I did not suffer. The example of 'you wouldn't have a tooth removed without anaesthetic' is often pulled out at this point.

Take, for example a marathon runner, or an ultra runner or a fell runner, they have to go through a lot of....pain, theres a barrier they have to break through (hitting the wall, transition?). Its hard work, just like labour. The feeling they get when they reach there goal is exstatic! Its the rush of endorphins and adrenaline! Its addictive, the people who do this do it again and again. The pain, feelings of accomplishment and the associated hormone release and has been compared to labour.

Suggesting women in labour avoid all the pain they can is like telling the marathon runners they should just get the bus.

Comparing that to the pain of someone suffering a life threatening illness does not compare IMO.

I should add, although I had good births, my pregnancies were shocking.
Awful sickness for the whole 9 months. I couldn't move/cook/ eat for all of it. I only put on 1/2 stone. Hyperemesis really is misunderstood and the suffering of that is severely down played. No understanding or sympathy of how it can severely impact your quality of life and relationships.

I am on blood thinners and a whole list of medication. I will be induced either when I have to be (for medical reasons) or else when the doctors are comfortable that the baby will be ok (but no later than 37 weeks).

The baby is expected to survive but may have problems due to all the class C drugs I've had to take as well as the MRI's. I have a low chance of survival (due to the blood thinners and my previous haemorrhage with my first child). The doctors are going to do their best but I may not clot enough in time. They are going to try for a vaginal birth as there is less risk than caesarian but I had that the first time when I haemorrhaged so it's not a guarantee.

Also, just to mention, I'm 38, size 8, no stretchmarks or cellulitis, or sagging breasts (and I BF for a total of 3 years). Fuck, I would have the body of a 20 year old if I hadn't had kids. Damn!

Sorry to hear that doubledare, my boasty post had no place after that.
Hope everything works out for you.

BadDayAtTheOrifice:

I did suffer many complications but I was fortunate enough that I could afford to have them fixed. You should be grateful that you made it without lasting emotional and physical damage. Many are not as fortunate.
I suffered PTSD which took me a long time to get over.

Avoidance of pain is a personal decision. I am not suggesting that women avoid labour pains (not sure where you got that from) I am merely suggesting that we show a little compassion towards women who experience that pain.
Pain does involve suffering and most people don't exactly enjoy being in pain or discomfort, so I find it bizarre that you should oppose pain relief. It's fine to go without it if you so desire, but to patronise women who do ask for pain relief is a bit disgusting. If you did not suffer I am happy for you. I did.

I shall explain with an example. Not every woman experiences the same level of discomfort and pain during her periods. While I would be stuck moaning in bed during my period my sister could play basketball during her time of the month. She could well have patronised me for taking Ibuprofen and heating pads and said things like "Pain is not to be feared" and "I don't suffer, how come you do?'. But she understood that every female body is different.
The hormone that causes uterine contractions during the periods is the same one that causes labour pains. Just as menstrual cramps don't feel the same for everyone, labour pains don't impact all women the same way either. Given this disparity it is pointless to judge someone for accepting or refusing pain relief.

BadDay:

I am 31. I am a size 8 as well.I have some stretch marks, some cellulite (not cellulitis as you call it), my breasts do sag (not sure why you felt the need to mention breastfeeding because it doesn't cause the breasts to sag).

Instead of being humble and grateful that you managed without complications and that you are still able to look in the mirror and feel happy, you are boasting about it and ridiculing other women who have been less fortunate.
Shabby.

DoubleDare:

I am so terribly sorry:( I had no idea it was life threatening.I sincerely hope all this works out without a hitch.

I am curious as to why a vaginal birth is considered safer for you despite a previous cesarian and all the other complications But then again, I am not a doctor.

Sending you e-hugs.

That's ok BadDayAtTheOrifice.

The problem is so much of pregnancy is down to luck. I have no prior history of health problems, I'm youngish, my mother had five children with no problems, my sister had two with no problems, I don't smoke, drink or do drugs. I took my multivitamins and ate healthily. So how come I got sick when women who are obese and live on crisps and soft drink are fine?

Just remember, you are lucky, not superior to those of us who ran into complications or whose bodies didn't bounce back like yours did.

Sorry PeaceAndHope, I had a vaginal birth the first time and still haemorrhaged badly, that's why even though it's less risky than a caesarian it's not a guarantee that I won't bleed to death.

I know there is probably people reading this thinking, "why didn't you terminate the pregnancy?" but because of the this risk of me haemorrhaging they doctors refused to consider this even though I was only 11 weeks.

oops posted twice, not sure why.

No I didn't, two different messages. Doh! I'll blame it on the stroke.

DoubleDare:

This is sounding more and more awful! You must feel trapped. Have you asked for a second opinion regarding the termination(assuming that is what you would prefer)? I'm sure it carries risks but surely the risks will be lesser than carrying the pregnancy to term and giving birth at 37 weeks?

Darn it, I just lost a big long post. I'm sorry I came across that way, its not quite what I meant, but I wish there weren't so many negative perceptions of how motherhood will 'ruin' you,

I'm not anti pain relief for anyone, its not right that some women suffer or don't get the pain relief they request, I'm just keen on approaching pain from a different perspective and reduce 'suffering'

I don't think I'm superior to anyone. Just lucky. I know that, and boy, do I appreciate all i have.

PeaceAndHope, well my husband and I couldn't get our heads around it either. But I think the risk of me dying from the blood clots is so high they have to keep me on the blood thinners for four to six months until my body can disolve them. By the time it will be safe for me to have the termination my baby will be at full-term anyway.

Yes have had second and third opinions. Obstetrics won't touch me with a barge pole unless the head of neurology give the all clear.

No-one can really comment on another woman's birth experience because no-one knows what pain feels like to another person. People have different levels of tolerance, and doctors also think that it's likely that people objectively experience pain differently. Therefore people who say "Oh you have to embrace the pain. It's bearable" should STFU as they have no idea how their pain compared to that of someone else.

I am a sub-3.30 marathon (bragging top trumps) and ultra-marathon runner, and I can say that for me, personally, pain of childbirth is on another level to running pain. Firstly, I think it's the fact that the marathon is finite. You know how much further there is to go. Secondly, you can stop, slow your pace any time you want. You control it. You don't control labour. Once you're on that train, there ain't no getting off and there ain't no timetable either. Lastly, you can actually train for a marathon and so spread the pain. You can't really train for labour in realistic circumstances.

Now, someone may well come on here and say "No way. Marathons are the worst thing ever"......which proves my first point.

Just catching up a little

Find it odd that the people who are saying there should be more info etc and that society has some funny ideas are being accused of sock puppetry (I mean, FGS, while the people who are apparently the "voice of reason" include someone who has had multiple posts deleted.

This is a very strange topic, I haven't posted on a discussion thread here and I'm not sure I will again. Is it yet another area of MN where there is a prevailing set of ideas which comes across as terribly hostile to anyone who wanders in and says something else?